[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by shadha

The fact that this is even up for debate is absurd to me and the fact that those who are arguing in favor of the questionable and/or ambiguous Hadith are unable to provide Qur'anic proof to further support them is nothing less than saddening to me.

Many have argued against me as to why I don’t take Hadiths to be legal rulings. This thread is enough to prove my point of Hadiths being heresy and hence should only be used as historical references and not legal rulings. Before you take out your claws and pounce, read the following Hadith I found on the matter of exposing ones privates to their spouse:

On the authority of Mu'awiyah Ibn Haida, who narrated: "I said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, which of our ‘awrah is allowed (to uncover), and which one must we beware of (uncovering it)?' The Prophet answered, "Guard your `awrah except from your wife or those whom your right hand possesses."

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, "Guard your private concealed [parts] except from your marriage partner" (Ibn Hajar).

Am I the only one who is seeing the contradiction of Hadiths that I posted and the ones previously posted? Either you are allowed or you aren’t, which is it? Seeing as providing Hadiths in attempt to finding the answer has further compounded the problems, I will now quote the Qur’an.

One would think, that if it were truly Mukruh to gaze upon the private parts of your spouse, Allah, swt, would have absolutely sent down this ruling in the Qur'an. The same Qur'an that has already placed stipulations and restrictions [refraining from sex during the menstrual cycle, only having sex with your spouse/right hand possess, etc.] upon humans who wish to fulfill their sexual desires.

"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how you will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah." (2: 223)

“Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments, and ye are their garments…” (2:187)

“And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and he has put love and mercy between your (hearts) : verily in that are Signs for those who reflect” (30:21)

These ayahs are self-explanatory, but hey, if you don’t want to expose all of your body to your spouse, all the power to you. Just don’t act like Islam requires it and don't cement yourself up on your holy horse and become arrogant and snooty against others who rightfully disagree with your personal [not religious] choice.


shadha-

Excellent post by Shadha.

Some one has finally noticed that these Hadiths only serve to accomplish superstitious beliefs and does not achieve any real goal. People pick and choose what Hadith they want to quote, scholars pick & choose their own hadiths, and people then pick and choose their scholars to suit their own mould of thinking, as demonstrated in this thread.

I agree with Shadha, if you dislike looking at your spouses private parts, then "all power to you". Dont claim any religious value for your preference because that is your choice, and the fact that Imam Shafi or any other scholar also disliked it does not make it part of Allah's religion.

These superstitious beliefs only serve to promote a less then healthy and fuifilling sexual relationship and nothing else - they are not good deeds.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by AceOfHearts

Excellent post by Shadha.

Some one has finally noticed that these Hadiths only serve to accomplish superstitious beliefs and does not achieve any real goal. People pick and chose what Hadith they want to quote, scholars pick & chose their own hadiths, and people then pick and chose their scholars to suit their own mould of thinking, as demonstrated in this thread.

I agree with Shadha, if you dislike looking at your spouses private parts, then "all power to you". Dont claim any religious value for your preference because that is your choice, and the fact that Imam Shafi or any other scholar also disliked it does not make it part of Allah's religion.

These superstitious beliefs only serve to promote a less then healthy and fuifilling sexual relationship and nothing else - they are not good deeds.

Ummm... I don't think Shadha was saying to throw out Hadiths entirely, simple not to rely on hadiths alone. Those are two very different things.

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I'm confused as to how one can deduce from the hadith about bathing from one vessel that it's OK to look at the nakedness of your spouse? The hadith speaks of how they shared the vessel of water; it did not speak of them being naked. We don't have a description of what they were wearing (or not wearing, for that matter), but I would suppose they would have been covering the minimum 3awrah in front of each other, which applies to both women and their mahrams: from the navel to the knees.

Personally, I would say it's makrooh.

Anyway, this topic itself is makrooh

I can guarantee you this is not what the Prophet Muhammad would have immagined his followers discussing after 1400 years: discussing his bathroom activities.

[ABCDGIRL]

Excuse me but..

because guys are visual creatures how else are they to become aroused if they can't look at their wives??

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Ummm... I don't think Shadha was saying to throw out Hadiths entirely, simple not to rely on hadiths alone. Those are two very different things.

And what do I say? Throw out Hadiths?

Not to rely on Hadith is the same message I give. But it is so traumatic for you - I think you are just trying to conceal the fact that someone else has also realised this fact.

Shadha has realised this, but she now has to question your claim that obeying Hadiths is directly or indirectly commanded in the Qur'an. Because if it has been like you say, then Shadha is going against the Qur'an by what she said in that post, and she does not want to do that. This would be Shadha's next step: to verify what the Qur'an says about Hadiths, if she truly means what she said.

I have verified it, alhamdulillah. And I am always giving the evidences which is why it is so much more troubling and traumatic for you than Shadha's 'initital realisation'. This is why you are indicating I have "thrown out hadith" whereas all I have done, is make the same realisation as Shadha, and then consulted the Qur'an and arguing my case.

[nooni]

nice post shadha

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by nooni

seriously.

Sorry, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by AceOfHearts

And what do I say? Throw out Hadiths?

Not to rely on Hadith is the same message I give. But it is so traumatic for you - I think you are just trying to conceal the fact that someone else has also realised this fact.

If anyone here is throwing a fit, its you and your crew of clowns. Traumatic? Do you even know how to use the English language properly? No one here is getting traumatized by your unqualified and laughable beliefs, and you certainly don't speak for Shadha - she can speak for herself, and no one here is trying to "conceal" anything, so either drop the hyperbole ... or risk losing any credibility you might have left.

We were simply discussing legitimate concerns - as Islam is a practical religion - and you felt the need to come and inject extraneous items into the discussion.

We understand your concerns about the Hadith.

We also understand that you're a liar, that you're supremely incompetent to speak about either the Qur'an or Ahaadith, and you obviously are greatly disturbed whenever you see people discussing a topic and referencing the Sunnah.

Yeah, we get all that.

You have your way, we have ours.

To you your religion, and to us ours.

Like the Qur'an says.

[shsh]

me to my mom: "mommy, mommy! i read on islamica that......"




its kinda weird.... i dont think i will need "the lecture"....everything is right here on islamica

[nooni]

Originally Posted by AceOfHearts

Sorry, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

agreeing with the whole talking so openly abt the Prophet's intimate life.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by nooni

agreeing with the whole talking so openly abt the Prophet's intimate life.

He was an example for us and set the standard to which we aspire, and all Muslims know this, and his widows knew this as well. That's why, thanks to bibi Aisha, we have such details as we do.

If she wasn't shy about explaining it to the Ummah, then why should we be shy mentioning it? Its not like we're using disrespectful or vulgar terms.

[LEGALEAGLE]

I think Shadha is rather busy at the moment...

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Oh right, and here's something else I read a long time ago which I still had in my memory as of the time of writing of my earlier post which you've objected to.

Qualified Daleel? Check.
Qualified Sheikh? Check.
Have I read up on this issue? Check.

Are you satisfied now?

With your immaturity?

Nope.

[zakk]

Originally Posted by Songbird

With your immaturity?

Nope.

That wasn't exactly a "mature" response either.

And why not answer his question instead of attacking his maturity level? You were the one who cast aspersions on the veracity of his argument in the first place; if you still disagree you should at least provide a counter-argument instead of resorting to insults.

[nooni]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah