[Songbird]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

I know that's been written in some places, but I highly doubt it's true - if I recall correctly, they used to take baths together.

And even if that case was true with just Aisha', I doubt it would be the same for his other wives. All of a man's body is 100% halal for his wife to look at, and vice versa. If that weren't the case, we'd know about it.

IbnMardhiyah, you really should be careful of speaking of something you cannot qualify with Daleel.

Either speak to a qualified Sheikh about this, or alternatively read up on this issue.

You say they took baths together. Indeed they did alhamdulillah. Tell me, though did they have bathrooms then?

Bathtbubs as we know them today?

In what vessel, for example did they bathe?

Do you know for certain that their private parts were uncovered? If so, please present to me your proof/proves.

Again, too many of you are looking at this whole issue through a Western mindset. You forget the time that our Nabi sallAllahu alaihi wasallam lived and the practices of his everyday life. Practices we are to emulate in our lives too.

It is very apparent that some you have not studied his life in depth, because at no stage do you refer to any authenticated source.

And before anyone accuses me of being prudish, go educate yourselves. Go buy a copy of Ash-Shifa or any other Seerah and look at chapters concerning the Prophet's modesty. In Ash-Shifa it's around page 48 or so, if memory serves me correctly.

Our Prophet's Haya was compared to that of 40 secluded virgins, and yet conversely, he would have intimate relations, sometimes, with all his wives [RA] in one night due to the strength and stamina that he possessed mashaAllah! Refer to At-Tirmidhi et al.

But refrain from allowing your own Nafs to cloud your opinion. If we are told A'isha radiAllahu anhu never saw her husband's private parts during the course of their marriage, and daleel is provided, we need to accept this and move on.

[Jamroll]

I think couples should put sunglasses on and then turn the lights off before they engage in any intimacy.

Also they should wear over gloves.

And those protective surgical masks. You can never be too careful, you know.

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by Songbird

IbnMardhiyah, you really should be careful of speaking of something you cannot qualify with Daleel.

Either speak to a qualified Sheikh about this, or alternatively read up on this issue.

You say they took baths together. Indeed they did alhamdulillah. Tell me, though did they have bathrooms then?

Bathtbubs as we know them today?

In what vessel, for example did they bathe?

Do you know for certain that their private parts were uncovered? If so, please present to me your proof/proves.

Again, too many of you are looking at this whole issue through a Western mindset. You forget the time that our Nabi sallAllahu alaihi wasallam lived and the practices of his everyday life. Practices we are to emulate in our lives too.

It is very apparent that some you have not studied his life in depth, because at no stage do you refer to any authenticated source.

And before anyone accuses me of being prudish, go educate yourselves. Go buy a copy of Ash-Shifa or any other Seerah and look at chapters concerning the Prophet's modesty. In Ash-Shifa it's around page 48 or so, if memory serves me correctly.

Our Prophet's Haya was compared to that of 40 secluded virgins, and yet conversely, he would have intimate relations, sometimes, with all his wives [RA] in one night due to the strength and stamina that he possessed mashaAllah! Refer to At-Tirmidhi et al.

But refrain from allowing your own Nafs to cloud your opinion. If we are told A'isha radiAllahu anhu never saw her husband's private parts during the course of their marriage, and daleel is provided, we need to accept this and move on.

Why do you people indulge in talking about what happened in the Prophe's bedroom? Do you think he would have liked it if the next morning he found the entire Madina and the entire world talking about what he did last night?

Beside why on earth do you not use your reason spreading these falsified and, simply put,, UNACCEPTABLE rumour on how many wives the Prophet slept with in one night and what his stamina was - this is outrageous falsification. The Prophet would never approve people spreading anything of this like about him.

So to all of you, STOP quoting these nonsensical Hadiths about the Prophets most private life and start looking into the Qur'an for all your answers, which is what the Prophet wanted you to do. If you cant find anything therein, then stop comming up with false laws to impose on others.

[RayaatunSood]

On the authority of Aisha radhiyallahu 3nha who said: "I used to bathe with the Prophet from a single container of water which was placed between us such that our hands collided inside it. He used to race me such that I would say: `Leave some for me, leave some for me!' She added: `We were in a state of Janabah (i.e. the state of having slept together).'"Bukharee and Muslim

Aisha said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I used to bathe from one vessel (pot).” Bukharee

Al-Haafiz said in al-Fath: “Al-Daawoodi interpreted this to mean that it is permissible for a man to look at his wife’s ‘awrah (private parts) and vice-versa. This is supported by the report narrated by Ibn Hibbaan via Sulaymaan ibn Moosa, who was asked about a man looking at his wife’s private parts. He said: ‘I asked Aisha, and she referred to this hadeeth.’ This is evidence in this matter. And Allaah knows best.”

There are also ahadeeth from two other wives of the prophet, Umm Salamah and Maymoonah Radhiyallahu 3nhuma about bathing with the prophet from a single container.

Regarding the Hadeeth in which Aisha Radhiyallahu 3nha says "The Prophet did not see mine (private parts), nor I his" Scholars have said it is a weak Hadeeth. But because of this Hadeeth, some scholars say it is Makrooh Tanzeehi (Undesirable) to look at the private parts.

The Hadeeth: “When any one of you has intercourse with his wife or slave girl, let him not look at her private parts, because this causes blindness.” Abu Haatim ar-Raazi, Ibn Hibban and Ibn al-Jawzi said: “(This is) mawdhoo3 (fabricated).

Ibn Hazm says it is permissible for a man to look at the private parts of his wife, and it is permissible for her too, and it is not Makrooh.

Bottom Line, It is permissible although some schoars are of the opinion that it is Makrooh Tanzeehi (Undesirable) because of the Hadeeth of Aisha Radhiyallahu 3nha.
Some say it is not Makrooh.
Others say it is Afdhal (better) to not look.

[Arabesque]

I'm confused as to how one can deduce from the hadith about bathing from one vessel that it's OK to look at the nakedness of your spouse? The hadith speaks of how they shared the vessel of water; it did not speak of them being naked. We don't have a description of what they were wearing (or not wearing, for that matter), but I would suppose they would have been covering the minimum 3awrah in front of each other, which applies to both women and their mahrams: from the navel to the knees.

Personally, I would say it's makrooh.

Anyway, this topic itself is makrooh

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Songbird

IbnMardhiyah, you really should be careful of speaking of something you cannot qualify with Daleel.

Thanks for the reminder.

I am aware of that.

And if I ever say anything which you personally are not aware of then kindly just say "I've never heard of this before, can you please provide me with the source?"

And then I will.

Learning takes place from the cradle to the grave. Lets keep that in mind, shall we? Thanks.

As for the daleel, the exact hadith I had in mind is what RayaatunSood so gracefully provided.

[shadha]

The fact that this is even up for debate is absurd to me and the fact that those who are arguing in favor of the questionable and/or ambiguous Hadith are unable to provide Qur'anic proof to further support them is nothing less than saddening to me.

Many have argued against me as to why I don’t take Hadiths to be legal rulings. This thread is enough to prove my point of Hadiths being heresy and hence should only be used as historical references and not legal rulings. Before you take out your claws and pounce, read the following Hadith I found on the matter of exposing ones privates to their spouse:

On the authority of Mu'awiyah Ibn Haida, who narrated: "I said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, which of our ‘awrah is allowed (to uncover), and which one must we beware of (uncovering it)?' The Prophet answered, "Guard your `awrah except from your wife or those whom your right hand possesses."

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, "Guard your private concealed [parts] except from your marriage partner" (Ibn Hajar).

Am I the only one who is seeing the contradiction of Hadiths that I posted and the ones previously posted? Either you are allowed or you aren’t, which is it? Seeing as providing Hadiths in attempt to finding the answer has further compounded the problems, I will now quote the Qur’an.

One would think, that if it were truly Mukruh to gaze upon the private parts of your spouse, Allah, swt, would have absolutely sent down this ruling in the Qur'an. The same Qur'an that has already placed stipulations and restrictions [refraining from sex during the menstrual cycle, only having sex with your spouse/right hand possess, etc.] upon humans who wish to fulfill their sexual desires.

"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how you will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah." (2: 223)

“Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments, and ye are their garments…” (2:187)

“And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and he has put love and mercy between your (hearts) : verily in that are Signs for those who reflect” (30:21)

These ayahs are self-explanatory, but hey, if you don’t want to expose all of your body to your spouse, all the power to you. Just don’t act like Islam requires it and don't cement yourself up on your holy horse and become arrogant and snooty against others who rightfully disagree with your personal [not religious] choice.


shadha-

[ChotooMotoo]

How come your husband can't see your private parts, he who is closer to you than your father or mother, but your Ob-GYN can, and so can all the assistants when you have a baby. That doesn't make any sense at all "Doctor, who is not my Mahram, please help me deliver this baby which requires you to look at my private parts, but please make sure my husband doesn't come in the room, he's not allowed to see those things"

Whether it's better modesty to keep them hiden from eachother is a seperate matter. Certainly spouses should be modest with eachother to some extent. To say that it's bad to see those places, or that it's sinful or something seems very silly to me. Are you sinning when you get your pap smear every year?

[Jamroll]

Salam,

I think people are being too rigid about this on both sides of the argument to the extent that it's getting almost ridiculous.

A fundamental part of Islam is this concept of haya. Although the concept of haya is made up of more than just "modesty", "modesty" is probably the closest expression of it in English. Another fundamental part of Islam is moderation. Islam is the middle way, the way between extremes, not of the extremes.

That said, the general underlying principle is that we should not engage in overdoing it to the extent we can't even enjoy our spouses, lest we should turn into a pillar of salt and dissolve if we happen to glance at our naked spouse. On the other hand, this doesn't mean if the house is empty except for the couple that they should be strutting around like it's a nudist camp.

For God's sakes, just use a bit of common sense.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

On the other hand, this doesn't mean if the house is empty except for the couple that they should be strutting around like it's a nudist camp.

Ahhh Man! You ruin all my fun. (j/k, that's what bathrobes are for)

[proudtobemuslim]

I think couples should put sunglasses on and then turn the lights off before they engage in any intimacy.

Also they should wear over gloves.

And those protective surgical masks. You can never be too careful, you know.

loooooooooool

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by shadha

Am I the only one who is seeing the contradiction of Hadiths that I posted and the ones previously posted?

Sorry ... where's the contradiction?

[nooni]

Originally Posted by AceOfHearts

Why do you people indulge in talking about what happened in the Prophe's bedroom? Do you think he would have liked it if the next morning he found the entire Madina and the entire world talking about what he did last night?

Beside why on earth do you not use your reason spreading these falsified and, simply put,, UNACCEPTABLE rumour on how many wives the Prophet slept with in one night and what his stamina was - this is outrageous falsification. The Prophet would never approve people spreading anything of this like about him.
.

seriously.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Songbird

IbnMardhiyah, you really should be careful of speaking of something you cannot qualify with Daleel.

Either speak to a qualified Sheikh about this, or alternatively read up on this issue.

Oh right, and here's something else I read a long time ago which I still had in my memory as of the time of writing of my earlier post which you've objected to.

Qualified Daleel? Check.
Qualified Sheikh? Check.
Have I read up on this issue? Check.

Are you satisfied now?