[nooni]

i think its good shes bringing the topic up to the mass public but i do agree that some things should be kept more private.

for example, she can talk abt mutual love and even sex based on islam publicly, but maybe hold phone call sessions in private or set up a website where she can discuss more "haya-less" topics. the reason why im calling it haya-less is not because i think these topics should not be discussed at all but i just couldnt find a better word

its true that the muslim world does need to start talking abt such things to inshallah prevent honor killings because someone thought a girl wasnt a virgin simply because she didnt bleed. these topics are important, absolutely, but there are some good alternative ways of getting the message out there besides tv for purposes of keeping it appropriate.

[AmroodWaala]

Originally Posted by WickedSam

sex is 50% of a marriage:

wishful thinking

[Aryan_]

It's on TV because not everyone is comfortable about seeing a doctor about somethign happening in their nether regions....plus it broadens the audience and saves more lives. Are you all against lives being saved?

Muslim countries are way too conservative when it comes to sex...sex was a gift from Allah to Adam and without it life on earth would be a lot more dull. You all are here because someone stuck something into someone.

I didn't know you couldn't have sex during ramadan. Damn....why did I have to find that out now?

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

It's just a matter of haya.

And there's the key word.

To concur with Arabesque, if we look to the Seerah of our Nabi sallAllahu alaihi wasallam, there is NEVER any mention of discussing intimate issues in the public sphere. The Prophet sAw *did* discuss such issues, but never in a way that could attract voyeurs.

There was so much Haya in this great man sAw [and even with his wives] and you see illustrated when you read about his life

Did you know for example, that bibi A'isha radiAllahu anhu never even saw his private parts during their marriage?

What does this say?

It says that He sAw exhibited Haya even with His sAw wives.

Sadly for we Muslims of today -- and perhaps because our media and billboards have become so saturated by nudity and sex -- we've almost become inured to it. I mean nowadays it takes a lot to shock our senses and that's because we're used to it - we are in a sense, desensitised. Dare I admit to it, and from a cursory view of what I've seen on this board, there are now many Muslims who exhibit a very nonchalant attitude to nudity and sex in the media. And that's because they have little or no Haya.

But...befriend a Muslim from say the Middle East or even Malaysia, as I’ve had the fortune of doing, and you'll see the difference. Even though they've been exposed to *some* of the filth that pervades Western society, you still see inklings of their innocence, and the dismay they exhibit when they come out to the West.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Songbird

There was so much Haya in this great man sAw [and even with his wives] and you see illustrated when you read about his life

Did you know for example, that bibi A'isha radiAllahu anhu never even saw his private parts during their marriage?

That's kind of bizarre. Anyway, I don't think anyone is promoting voyeurism, just greater awareness. I didn't get the impression there was

But the point about how nudity has become very common in Western society that we've become desensitized to it. My question would be, if it no longer matters to us... why would it be such a danger? What would happen if girls were to walk around without their tops on, but nobody cared?
The answer is, it'd be like many societies on the planet in which bare breasts are considered normal things to see walking down the street. There's no lack of dignity in it, the members of those societies have simply grown up accustomed to it. They'd think it strange that a woman would cover up on a hot day. They're societies' aren't falling apart, and rape isn't anymore rampant than in other parts of the world.

At the same time, I've come across several gentlemen from the Middle East, in conservative areas who behave very strangely around women.

The standards of modesty that societies set for themselves don't necessarily mean that those standards must apply across the human spectrum.

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by Variable

But the point about how nudity has become very common in Western society that we've become desensitized to it. My question would be, if it no longer matters to us... why would it be such a danger? What would happen if girls were to walk around without their tops on, but nobody cared?
The answer is, it'd be like many societies on the planet in which bare breasts are considered normal things to see walking down the street. There's no lack of dignity in it, the members of those societies have simply grown up accustomed to it. They'd think it strange that a woman would cover up on a hot day. They're societies' aren't falling apart, and rape isn't anymore rampant than in other parts of the world.

Variable, at the end of the day, you're not a Muslim who lives his life in accordance by a set of rules sent down by his Creator, Allah swt.

You live your life in complete antithesis to mine.

You have no qualms with nudity, and that's your prerogative. You probably have no problems either in dating a promiscuous woman, or a woman who has had many sexual partners too.

If you meet a girl you like, it wont matter to you how many sexual partners she's had because unlike me, you're not bound by a set of moral codes. So long as it's all consensual, then all's good right?

It is therefore futile for me to explain to you the significance of Haya in my life, and for millions of other Muslimahs. To you, we're prudes, plain and simple. We don't know how to have sex [because we weren't taught] and this is further 'hampered' or exacerbated because we can't even discuss the topic openly like good ol' Westerners do, right?

You define all this as being antiquated and restricted, but I say, thank Allah for these 'restrictions'.

I don't wish to cause any offense to you - we're both adults [though my friends will attest to my lifelong struggle to avoid such a designation] so we should be able to speak directly from the heart and mind. Without the latter and we are in the realm of superstition. Speech without the former is like a pebble rattling on a dry ground.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Songbird

Variable, at the end of the day, you're not a Muslim who lives his life in accordance by a set of rules sent down by his Creator, Allah swt.

You live your life in complete antithesis to mine.

You have no qualms with nudity, and that's your prerogative. You probably have no problems either in dating a promiscuous woman, or a woman who has had many sexual partners too.

If you meet a girl you like, it wont matter to you how many sexual partners she's had because unlike me, you're not bound by a set of moral codes. So long as it's all consensual, then all's good right?

It is therefore futile for me to explain to you the significance of Haya in my life, and for millions of other Muslimahs. To you, we're prudes, plain and simple. We don't know how to have sex [because we weren't taught] and this is further 'hampered' or exacerbated because we can't even discuss the topic openly like good ol' Westerners do, right?

You define all this as being antiquated and restricted, but I say, thank Allah for these 'restrictions'.

Do you often give people's own opinions to them?
You don't know me. Instead you're ascribing a set of values and opinions to me that you percieve belong to a group (and a very broad one) of which I'm a member. Well, I don't really play that game.

What I was trying to do with that last post is show that there are different ideas of what constitutes modesty in other societies. And moreover that those societies aren't dysfunctional because of it. Societies with hugely differing ideas regarding modesty and sexuality have been chugging along just fine for a long time, despite the fact they'd describe the others' behavior as obscene.

Anyway, with this... some people seem to find comfort in what this lady is doing. All power to her. If people think she's lacking haya, or if they're embarrassed by it, they can turn off the television. It's not like it's pornography.

[ChotooMotoo]

There is a difference between being knowledgeable but having haya, and being totally ignorant and trying to pass ignorance off as haya.

I think she's doing a good service by removing ignorance about sex from the society. People need to know. They need to respect sex. How can they respect it if it's never talked about or discussed? What kind of marital relationship will you have if only the husband is having his needs fulfilled, but the woman is under the impression that she has no rights in Islam?

That's what she's doing, telling people their rights. It's not some halalified porno or something.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Songbird

Did you know for example, that bibi A'isha radiAllahu anhu never even saw his private parts during their marriage?

I know that's been written in some places, but I highly doubt it's true - if I recall correctly, they used to take baths together.

And even if that case was true with just Aisha', I doubt it would be the same for his other wives. All of a man's body is 100% halal for his wife to look at, and vice versa. If that weren't the case, we'd know about it.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

I know that's been written in some places, but I highly doubt it's true - if I recall correctly, they used to take baths together.

And even if that case was true with just Aisha', I doubt it would be the same for his other wives. All of a man's body is 100% halal for his wife to look at, and vice versa. If that weren't the case, we'd know about it.

I don't really like to talk about these things, but I just wanted to say that I think it is true.

In fact, when Adam and Hawwa were sent down to earth, the Qur'an says they had to cover their private parts with tree leaves. Allah (swt) even refers to the private parts as "saw2ah", the root word of which is "soo2", meaning something that is not nice or pleasant. Allah (swt) could have referred to it as "3awrah" instead, which is a more common word used many times in the Qur'an to point out what one can expose in front of one's spouse (or ma malakat aymanukum ... etc).

I don't know the Hanafi position on this, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Imam al-Shaf3i said it's makruh to look at the nakedness of your spouse.

But of course, this is a matter of opinion and culture. Some cultures are just more conservative than others.

[onetspvanilla]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I don't really like to talk about these things, but I just wanted to say that I think it is true.

In fact, when Adam and Hawwa were sent down to earth, the Qur'an says they had to cover their private parts with tree leaves. Allah (swt) even refers to the private parts as "saw2ah", the root word of which is "soo2", meaning something that is not nice or pleasant. Allah (swt) could have referred to it as "3awrah" instead, which is a more common word used many times in the Qur'an to point out what one can expose in front of one's spouse (or ma malakat aymanukum ... etc).

I don't know the Hanafi position on this, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Imam al-Shaf3i said it's makruh to look at the nakedness of your spouse.

But of course, this is a matter of opinion and culture. Some cultures are just more conservative than others.

sounds very much like some puritanical jews who have sex through a hole in the sheets.
btw.. numbers != alphabet letter alternatives.

[shadha]

Arabesque: I don't know the Hanafi position on this, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Imam al-Shaf3i said it's makruh to look at the nakedness of your spouse.

I have already argued my point in favor of the article, so I won't go around that circle again, but I'm very curious as to know what Qur'anic proof that the Shafi position uses in support of the makruh stipulation they placed on looking at the nakedness of your spouse.


shadha-

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

In fact, when Adam and Hawwa were sent down to earth, the Qur'an says they had to cover their private parts with tree leaves. Allah (swt) even refers to the private parts as "saw2ah", the root word of which is "soo2", meaning something that is not nice or pleasant. Allah (swt) could have referred to it as "3awrah" instead, which is a more common word used many times in the Qur'an

Peace,

"O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to cover your shame, as well as ritches; and the garment of righteousness is the best. That is from God's signs, perhaps they will remember." [Qur'an 7:26]

You could interpret this expression to refer to the shameful aspect of revealing this part of the body publically. It does not have to refer to the actual private parts itselft directly as you are taking it to mean.

What I mean is, If people did not cover their private parts in public, then this will be considered 'fahish' in Qur'anic terms. To symbolise the seriousness of shamelessly exposing this part of the body publically, this expression is used in the Verse in reference to the private parts, only to highlight the consequence of not covering them in public. The seriousness is emphesised through this style of expression, and it does not belittle, or demonise the private parts, or sexuality between married man and woman in any way whatsoever. It therefore, is not a commandment or an indication that these parts have to be covered between spouses.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Allah (swt) could have referred to it as "3awrah" instead, which is a more common word used many times in the Qur'an to point out what one can expose in front of one's spouse (or ma malakat aymanukum ... etc).

Please note, "ma malakat aymanukum" have to be legitimately married to the man. It is not sufficient to look at just one Verse like that, but the whole Qur'an has to be studied. What is done is that a big sin in the Qur'an, adultary and fornication has been legalised by these false Sunni teachings. Please look at Verse 4:25 which explicitly states that "ma malakat aymanukum" have to be legally married for sex to take place. Without marriage, the man and the woman is fornicating or committing adultary. The two groups of people in 23:6 must be married. This is also in line with the bigger Qur'anic picture on the importance of marriage and not to engage in relationships outside of marriage which is "fahish" (17:32).

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by AceOfHearts

Please note, "ma malakat aymanukum" have to be legitimately married to the man. It is not sufficient to look at just one Verse like that, but the whole Qur'an has to be studied.

No they don't. The koran is clear enough - no part instructs men to marry their slave girls. Don't be such a mangina.