[zeyneddine]

Originally Posted by sumiyia

wsalaam,

i agree. and i stated as such in the thread that was deleted. also, i'd like to thank you for asking me politely and respectfully.



ws

Dear sister sumiya,

With all due respect, you did not say any such thing in the previous thread, nor is a "Miss Headscarf" wrong [only] in the traditional sense. With my utmost respect, you lie. And lying is also haram!

ws

[sumiyia]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

salam

with all due respect sister, I dont think theres any doubt that in traditional cultures young women would be very stridently discouraged from participating in a beauty or fashion contest (to say the least). Hijab or no hijab. I am sure that this applies to the traditional cultures of the Maghreb where many danish muslims come from, and it also applies to traditional turkish culture which was always very jealous of its women. I understand that women in denmark are free to do as they wish, and it isnt my place or anybody's place to judge them. As a matter of fact, I think this contest is a very nice gesture because its coming from a mainstream broadcast network that chose to reach out to muslim youth. However, having said that, you have to acknowledge that this is something that goes against tradition, and probably goes against the tradition of wherever you come from as well! The sarcasm doesnt seem to be warranted, nobody is saying anything too outrageous.

ws

Originally Posted by zeyneddine

Dear sister sumiya,

With all due respect, you did not say any such thing in the previous thread, nor is a "Miss Headscarf" wrong [only] in the traditional sense. With my utmost respect, you lie. And lying is also haram!

ws

here's the difference between you and Mossad...

- he specifically said its not his place to pass judgments. you went ahead and passed judgments allllll over the place... according to you, the women participating in the contest were completely immodest and unislamic. you went further and said that any woman wearing colorful/sequined hijabs are also immodest. you gave yourself the power to judge others which only Allah swt has.

- he recognized that the contest is a nice gesture, and i agree. you agreed with another brother saying that this will lead to things like hijabi porn and what not... quite a far stretch and a bit of an exaggeration.

Mossad says it goes against traditional cultures, and i agree. traditionally, women participating in such a contest, hijab or no hijab, would be discouraged... your posts are strong evidence of the traditional view. you, however, are blowing it out of proportion and equating a photo contest to the catwalk and modeling. you still have not provided me with the judging criteria of the contest. if you had, we'd know for sure whether the participants will be judged based on looks or other criteria. even if they are being judged based on looks, women practicing hijab properly would presumably be covered appropriately and dressed "modestly" (let's leave the discussion of "flashy" hijabs off to the side for argument's sake). in dressing in such a manner, they appear no different than they would in every day life. if people can pass comments on a woman's attire in every day life (which again, for the sake of the argument, people DO pass comments whether positive or negative), then passing comments on a woman's dress/apperance in a photo in such a contest is no different than passing a comment in every day life. for that reason, and the additional reasons of dawah possibilities as pointed out in the first thread, i support this contest.

i do not, however, support women, or men for that matter, modeling on a catwalk, with or without hijab. there is a distinction to be made between this and the photo contest, and you aren't willing to see that.

your attempt to engage people in a discussion on the permissibility of wearing sequins and colors and the modesty that entails diverted the thread from the actual issue which i addressed above.

i'm not interested in hearing your arguments because you haven't really presented anything substantive in the span of two threads on the matter, and i doubt you'll be able to present anything substantive in the future either. also, i should be studying. salaam

[zeyneddine]

Originally Posted by sumiyia

here's the difference between you and Mossad...

- he specifically said its not his place to pass judgments. you went ahead and passed judgments allllll over the place... according to you, the women participating in the contest were completely immodest and unislamic. you went further and said that any woman wearing colorful/sequined hijabs are also immodest. you gave yourself the power to judge others which only Allah swt has.

- he recognized that the contest is a nice gesture, and i agree. you agreed with another brother saying that this will lead to things like hijabi porn and what not... quite a far stretch and a bit of an exaggeration.

Mossad says it goes against traditional cultures, and i agree. traditionally, women participating in such a contest, hijab or no hijab, would be discouraged... your posts are strong evidence of the traditional view. you, however, are blowing it out of proportion and equating a photo contest to the catwalk and modeling. you still have not provided me with the judging criteria of the contest. if you had, we'd know for sure whether the participants will be judged based on looks or other criteria. even if they are being judged based on looks, women practicing hijab properly would presumably be covered appropriately and dressed "modestly" (let's leave the discussion of "flashy" hijabs off to the side for argument's sake). in dressing in such a manner, they appear no different than they would in every day life. if people can pass comments on a woman's attire in every day life (which again, for the sake of the argument, people DO pass comments whether positive or negative), then passing comments on a woman's dress/apperance in a photo in such a contest is no different than passing a comment in every day life. for that reason, and the additional reasons of dawah possibilities as pointed out in the first thread, i support this contest.

i do not, however, support women, or men for that matter, modeling on a catwalk, with or without hijab. there is a distinction to be made between this and the photo contest, and you aren't willing to see that.

your attempt to engage people in a discussion on the permissibility of wearing sequins and colors and the modesty that entails diverted the thread from the actual issue which i addressed above.

i'm not interested in hearing your arguments because you haven't really presented anything substantive in the span of two threads on the matter, and i doubt you'll be able to present anything substantive in the future either. also, i should be studying. salaam

I am very happy you found differences between br. MC and I.

Your post has multiple misrepresentations. If you see something wrong, you're supposed to say its wrong as was [rightly] done by Sr. Jellymill regarding my sig. Thats not simply passing a judgment. I did not say the women participating were immodest, but indeed, participating in a contest where your physical appearance will be judged by males is indeed immodest.

Sr Timbit or zzze brought up sequins. My question posed to you which you still havent answered is why would modest women need to wear flashy/showy/bold hijabs. Again, thats not passing a judgment. It was a question, which was infact a response to your comment about Muslim women WANTING to wear flashy clothes. The answer YOU quoted from Sunnipath conveniently omitted that part. I asked you why. You still didnt answer.

Sr. Bluey mentioned, a documentary could have been made to explain the hijab, not a contest about appearances. That would be an example of bridge building. If this is a Muslim issue, what kind of gesture is women posing in hijabs?

You/St. Jellymill commented about how "women issues" such as hijab should be left upto women, and then you contradict yourself/her by displaying women in hijab to random men?

Even though I jokingly called you stupid, I dont believe that even you would think that the winner will be judged on what an amazing print her hijab has or what amazing intricate designs it has. If you encourage comments by people you meet on the streets, I'd find it shameful if you were my sister. Similarly, encouraging comments by putting yourself on display in such a contest is shameful AND contrary to the concept of modesty.

I have repeatedly stated all Muslims are enjoined to dress "well" and appear in good light. However that does not mean dressing in flashy/showy/bold hijabs or clothes.

After you have repeatedly ignored the contents of what I said, misconstrued my words, and ignored/sidestepped my questions, I cant be held at fault for not "presenting" anything substantive.

In essense, this contest is a hijabified form of Ratedesi.

Walaikum Assalam

[ChotooMotoo]

Please explain how colors or prints = flashy hijab or how sequins or beads = flashy hijabs.

Everything is relative. I assure you that if I wore a black abaya and plain black hijab to work every day, I would draw FAR more attention to myself (almost all negative considering where I work) than if I wore an attractive colored hijab with loose pants and a long shirt.

[zeyneddine]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Please explain how colors or prints = flashy hijab or how sequins or beads = flashy hijabs.

Everything is relative. I assure you that if I wore a black abaya and plain black hijab to work every day, I would draw FAR more attention to myself (almost all negative considering where I work) than if I wore an attractive colored hijab with loose pants and a long shirt.

Again Sr. "I hate Zain" Motoo... I did not bring up sequins. I brought up brightly colored hijabs as an example of flashy hijabs. The answer from Sunnipath stated that the muslimah herself would know a flashy hijab. If a guy sees a girl wearing flashy clothes and passes a comment, that would be indicative of an improper hijab. Yes, it is relative, as in your case, if you choose to continue wearing an all-black abaya/hijab and continue garnering attention, then it would be an improper dress.

Intricate artwork, laces, bright patterns would generally encourage more comments/attention, hence I used brightly colored hijabs as the example.

[ChotooMotoo]

I get the feeling this is some peoples idea of "proper hijab"



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[zeyneddine]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

I get the feeling this is some peoples idea of "proper hijab"

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I dont see how you are discussing the topic of this thread...

[sumiyia]

Originally Posted by zeyneddine

I am very happy you found differences between br. MC and I.

... because your happiness is my goal in life.

Your post has multiple misrepresentations. If you see something wrong, you're supposed to say its wrong as was [rightly] done by Sr. Jellymill regarding my sig. Thats not simply passing a judgment. I did not say the women participating were immodest, but indeed, participating in a contest where your physical appearance will be judged by males is indeed immodest.

agreed to disagree. you find it immodest. i don't.

Sr Timbit or zzze brought up sequins. My question posed to you which you still havent answered is why would modest women need to wear flashy/showy/bold hijabs. Again, thats not passing a judgment. It was a question, which was infact a response to your comment about Muslim women WANTING to wear flashy clothes.

irrelevant to the issue of modesty/immodesty in participating in a "miss headscarf" contest. and if you can't see that it IS passing judgment, you need some major psychological help.

Sr. Bluey mentioned, a documentary could have been made to explain the hijab, not a contest about appearances. That would be an example of bridge building.

a documentary is another tool to explain hijab. it may also faciliate bridge building and outreach. i find that a miss headscarf contest is an additional tool as I explained in the first thread. not going to bother typing it all out again.

You/St. Jellymill commented about how "women issues" such as hijab should be left upto women, and then you contradict yourself/her by displaying women in hijab to random men?

it's not a contradiction. it goes back to my point about being on display in every day life. you wouldn't understand though. it takes a hijabi to actually know what its like being a hijabi in the western world. it doesn't matter what color you wear, people still stare at you and make comments, whether you want them or not. which is why i said initially, (1) we'll discuss this when you become a muslim woman and wear hijab. until you do, it is beyond your comprehension because you are a MAN. (2) since you are a man, and not a woman, you are imposing your MALE views on WOMEN about female issues. we kindly ask that you shut it. thanks.

Even though I jokingly called you stupid, I dont believe that even you would think that the winner will be judged on what an amazing print her hijab has or what amazing intricate designs it has. If you encourage comments by people you meet on the streets, I'd find it shameful if you were my sister. Similarly, encouraging comments by putting yourself on display in such a contest is shameful AND contrary to the concept of modesty.

again, see above. you don't know what its like being a hijabi and getting the attention that you get JUST by having a piece of cloth on your head. by default, you attract attention. the color of the piece of fabric on your head makes no difference.

secondly, boo freakin hoo... the whole purpose of my existence was to make you unashamed of having me as a sister.

I have repeatedly stated all Muslims are enjoined to dress "well" and appear in good light. However that does not mean dressing in flashy/showy/bold hijabs or clothes.

After you have repeatedly ignored the contents of what I said, misconstrued my words, and ignored/sidestepped my questions, I cant be held at fault for not "presenting" anything substantive.

In essense, this contest is a hijabified form of Ratedesi.

Walaikum Assalam

blah blah blah. again, as a MAN who knows nothing of my experiences as a hijabi, please stop telling me, a muslim WOMAN, how to dress. my husband's opinion of my attire is the only one that matters.

[zeyneddine]

Originally Posted by sumiyia

... because your happiness is my goal in life.

jazakAllah

agreed to disagree. you find it immodest. i don't.

why?

irrelevant to the issue of modesty/immodesty in participating in a "miss headscarf" contest. and if you can't see that it IS passing judgment, you need some major psychological help.

you pose a statement, i question it and it becomes irrelevant?

a documentary is another tool to explain hijab. it may also faciliate bridge building and outreach. i find that a miss headscarf contest is an additional tool as I explained in the first thread. not going to bother typing it all out again.

thankfully, another sister disagrees.

it's not a contradiction. it goes back to my point about being on display in every day life. you wouldn't understand though. it takes a hijabi to actually know what its like being a hijabi in the western world. it doesn't matter what color you wear, people still stare at you and make comments, whether you want them or not. which is why i said initially, (1) we'll discuss this when you become a muslim woman and wear hijab. until you do, it is beyond your comprehension because you are a MAN. (2) since you are a man, and not a woman, you are imposing your MALE views on WOMEN about female issues. we kindly ask that you shut it. thanks.

this is a weird way to dismiss discussion. but ok, I'm never going to be becoming a women, muslim or otherwise.

again, see above. you don't know what its like being a hijabi and getting the attention that you get JUST by having a piece of cloth on your head. by default, you attract attention. the color of the piece of fabric on your head makes no difference.

secondly, boo freakin hoo... the whole purpose of my existence was to make you unashamed of having me as a sister.

So wait, you as an individual actively TRY to garner attention? Thats what I was saying, you're saying something completely different as an argument?

blah blah blah. again, as a MAN who knows nothing of my experiences as a hijabi, please stop telling me, a muslim WOMAN, how to dress. my husband's opinion of my attire is the only one that matters.

even with most banal points, you do bring up a gem. if your beauty is only for your husband to see, and I would imagine you not participating in a "rate me" contest, how are you supporting one?

[sumiyia]

so is it immodest to type in pink on islamica? it might attract brothers attention

[zeyneddine]

Originally Posted by sumiyia

so is it immodest to type in pink on islamica? it might attract brothers attention

is that an argument relevant to the thread?

[Fortune]

Originally Posted by zeyneddine

is that an argument relevant to the thread?

Is any argument relevant to this thread?

[zeyneddine]

Originally Posted by Fortune

Is any argument relevant to this thread?

yes, the ones that are contradictory to sr. sumiya

[Variable]

Originally Posted by zeyneddine