US soldier uses Quran for target practice; General apologizes

[jinnzaman]

ChotooMotoo said

I don't think it was an independent action. Like AmroodWala, I think it's just a symptom of the institutional racism that is running rampant through the armed forces these days. How is it Bush's fault? Who started the Iraq war? Whose policies necesetated an institution of anti-Arab, anti-Muslim racism to justify water boarding and other inhuman acts of violence against Arabs in Iraq, and Muslims the world over?

Talking to soldeirs who came back from the first gulf war, and soldiers who came back recently, there is a HUGE difference in mentality when it comes to Arabs and Muslims.

Bush is supposed to be the commander in cheif of the US armed forces, who else does the blame lie with, if not him?

It's just my opinion, you don't have to take it as gospel truth or anything.

The institutional racism against Muslims or Arabs preceded Bush and seems to be independently developing from the head of state. I'm curious what direct evidence you have in implicating Bush in all of this.

[jinnzaman]

AmroodWaala said

...and there are many of those reckless soldiers. This isn't the first time:

"And I saw something that I feared more than any of this: a copy of the Koran with a bullet hole through it. It was lying in the ruins of what was Sadr's headquarters in Sadr City. On April 8, according to witnesses, two US tanks broke down the walls of the centre while two guided missiles pierced its roof, leaving giant craters in the floor and missile debris behind.

The worst damage, however, was done by hand. The clerics at the Sadr office say that US soldiers entered the building and crudely shredded photographs of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the top Shia cleric in Iraq. When I arrived at the destroyed centre, the floor was covered in torn religious texts, including several copies of the Koran that been ripped and shot through with bullets.

Naomi Klein: An Iraqi intifada | World news | The Guardian -2004

And there are many soldiers that are not reckless. And there are commanding officers who keep these reckless soldiers in check. We can argue all day about whether the apology was sincere or not, but the fact is that it was given in a very humble manner in accord with local tribal custom. The soldier was relieved of duty. I honestly don't see what else could be done in this situation. I don't think its reasonable to ask for anything more.

[AmroodWaala]

jinnzaman said

And there are many soldiers that are not reckless. And there are commanding officers who keep these reckless soldiers in check. We can argue all day about whether the apology was sincere or not, but the fact is that it was given in a very humble manner in accord with local tribal custom. The soldier was relieved of duty. I honestly don't see what else could be done in this situation. I don't think its reasonable to ask for anything more.

I never said anything about the apology.
He should apologize & be relieved because, otherwise, it hurts the mission. The discussion isn't so much about his punishment but what gives rise to such attitudes. As I've stated, it stems from institutional racism. Failure to win "hearts and minds" of Iraqis is a fact that has been recognized by the think tanks in the west -- generally due to the attitudes of the American soldiers. And this is just another example of one of those attitudes.

edit:The blame for rise in insurgency also went to the inept handling of situations by the leaders (e.g..when the looting was underway, Rumsfeld with a smirk on his face commented, Iraqis are free and this is how free people act -- while hospitals and museums were being looted]).

But at least (now), the leaders/commanding officers have learned somewhat.

.

[ChotooMotoo]

jinnzaman said

The institutional racism against Muslims or Arabs preceded Bush and seems to be independently developing from the head of state. I'm curious what direct evidence you have in implicating Bush in all of this.

I don't have direct evidence, like I said in the post you just quoted, it's just my oppinion.

[Variable]

Is it institutional racism from all non-Muslim societies then since Islam's inception?


And (again the old argument) is 'racism' really the correct word here?

[AmroodWaala]

jinnzaman said

The institutional racism against Muslims or Arabs preceded Bush and seems to be independently developing from the head of state. .

I agree.

Edward Said wrote Orientalism in the 70s in which he referenced works from the past. While Said's work dealt with the academia, Shaheen noted films (mainstream) from 1900s that reinforced similar themes about Arabs/Muslim.

So it doesn't start with Bush but 911 intensified it.

[Vickie]

jinnzaman said

What does this have to do with Bush? This was the action of an independent soldier who acted recklessly.

u are not that naive,arent u?

[Wolfn]

slime said

US soldier uses Quran for target practice

Support the troops!

-Shadha

[roberto]

[QUOTE=AmroodWaala;144480]

The blame for rise in insurgency also went to the inept handling of situations by the leaders (e.g..when the looting was underway, Rumsfeld with a smirk on his face commented, Iraqis are free and this is how free people act -- while hospitals and museums were being looted]).

Okay let’s take away the smirk then we are left with the appalling behaviour

[roberto]

Variable said

Is it institutional racism from all non-Muslim societies then since Islam's inception?


And (again the old argument) is 'racism' really the correct word here?

No it is not.

[Blue_Phoenix]

roberto said

Yes many....

How many of them would be Muslims though?

[ChotooMotoo]

Blue_Phoenix said

How many of them would be Muslims though?

probably not as many as there should be.

[jinnzaman]

Variable said

Is it institutional racism from all non-Muslim societies then since Islam's inception?


And (again the old argument) is 'racism' really the correct word here?

Caricatures of Muslims often take on racial grounds (dark-skinned, bearded, beady-eyed, Arabic accents (in spite of the fact that most Muslims aren't Arab), etc.

[ChotooMotoo]

with reports like this comming out

W. House ignored FBI concerns on prisoner abuse: probe - Yahoo! News

W. House ignored FBI concerns on prisoner abuse: probe
By Randall Mikkelsen
1 hour, 45 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Top Bush administration security officials ignored FBI concerns over abusive treatment of terrorism suspects, which one agent called "borderline torture," a four-year Justice Department probe found.

The FBI clashed with the Pentagon and CIA over interrogation techniques including snarling dogs, sexual provocation and forced nudity, said the 370-page report, released on Tuesday by the Justice Department's inspector general.

Critics say such techniques inflicted on terrorism suspects captured after the September 11 attacks amounted to torture. The report covers late 2001 to the end of 2004.

FBI agents joined in terrorism interrogations and still do, but bureau Director Robert Mueller directed agents in 2002 to not participate in coercive questioning, the report said.

The FBI and Justice Department officials raised concerns with the National Security Council, which comprises top security-agency officials, and with officials at the Guantanamo Bay detention center for terrorism suspects, the report said. They argued the abusive interrogations were counterproductive.

"Ultimately, neither the FBI nor the DoJ had a significant impact on the practices of the military with respect to the detainees," it said.

The National Security Council was headed then by President George W. Bush and included Vice President **** Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, now secretary of state.

"The White House, the Defense Department, and the CIA were ignoring advice that was coming from people who were charged with enforcement of the law," said Chris Anders, senior legislative council of the American Civil Liberties Union.

RICE ROLE

The report is the first to show a role by Rice in the prisoner-abuse issue, Anders said.

White House spokesman Tony Fratto said "abuse or inhumane treatment of prisoners is not, and never has been, US policy." Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman referred to the military's 2005 report into the charges, which "determined that there was no evidence of torture or inhumane treatment."

The Pentagon stopped authorizing some abusive techniques in 2003, and Congress in 2005 banned inhumane treatment of prisoners. The CIA says it has not used "waterboarding," a form of simulated drowning, in five years.

But Bush in March vetoed legislation that would ban the CIA from using waterboarding and other abusive techniques.

Democrats in Congress vowed to hold hearings on the report and faulted FBI and Justice Department leaders for not taking stronger action to halt abuses. "This remains a sorry chapter in our nation's history," said Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, a Vermont Democrat.

The new report quotes an FBI agent as objecting that the CIA's interrogation of suspected senior al Qaeda commander Abu Zubaydah was "borderline torture," and said at one point an agent helped care for him in the hospital "even to the point of cleaning him up after bowel movements."

The CIA has acknowledged Zubaydah was one of three suspects subjected to waterboarding, but the report blacked out as classified information interrogation techniques used on him.

The report says techniques used in Guantanamo or Iraq included sleep disruption, prolonged "short shackling" of hands and feet or wrapping a detainee's head in duct tape. A female interrogator grabbed a detainee's genitals to inflict pain.

It also said a U.S. Marine captain questioning suspected September 11 conspirator Mohammed al-Qahtani squatted over a Koran, provoking Qahtani to lunge at the Marine and the holy book.

SUICIDE ATTEMPT

Qahtani attempted suicide in April by cutting himself after learning he faced charges -- later thrown out -- that could carry the death penalty, his lawyer said on Monday.

In 2004 FBI agents were required to report abusive conduct. But agents told Justice Department investigators they often did not know what techniques the military authorized.

The FBI's continued involvement in interrogations of prisoners interviewed by the CIA, which has fewer restraints on techniques, may present problems for future legal cases, the report said.

CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano said the CIAs interrogation methods had previously been found lawful by the Justice Department and were used only when traditional means of questioning, such as rapport-building, failed.

(Additional reporting by Andrew Gray and Jeremy Pelofksy in Washington, and Jane Sutton at the Guantanamo Bay U.S. Naval Base, Cuba)

(Editing by Cynthia Osterman)

you really wonder about all the abuses happening in Iraq as well, and where the tacit aproval for that abuses come from.

[Wolfn]

Edit........