[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

No, because they're a dangerous destabilizing militia that has created a state within a state in Lebanon and (naturally) dont want to be dislodged from that position, and their weapons give them the ability to ignore lebanon's law and constitution as they see fit. And now they've proven their willingness to kill their countrymen in order to preserve their right to flaunt their country's laws.

Thats why they have to be dealt with and disarmed at some point.

ws

Hizbullah isn't the only dangerous destabilizing militia with weapons and an agenda for control.

And in terms of the law and the Constitution . . . the problem is that its outdated. How does one change the law of the land when it itself isn't open to change?

And in terms of the shutting down of the network by the government, its debateable that the government had such authority . . . government is one with limited powers and under a democratic framework theory of government . . . the state must generally have a compelling interest in taking away certain freedoms . . .

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Hizbullah isn't the only dangerous destabilizing militia with weapons and an agenda for control.

Virtually all of the militias disarmed at the end of the civil war, or incorporated into the armed forces. There are a few armed elements left, notably hizbullah and some Palestinian factions in the refugee camps. Other groups may have their guns stocked away somewhere, but they are not an armed presence in public life, they dont mount military attacks on anybody else, they dont have military fiefdoms as they did during the civil war, etc. Of course this will all change and things will go back to the way they were

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

And in terms of the law and the Constitution . . . the problem is that its outdated. How does one change the law of the land when it itself isn't open to change?

Talks have been underway for over a year in Lebanon to resolve ongoing conflicts there. One of the issues on the table has been the electoral system which is what I assume you're referring to. Hizbullah has always been expert at seizing on minor things to push forward other agendas. This issue of the telephone network and airport guy (who was allowing Hizbullah to videotape incoming and outgoing flights from Lebanon's national airport, btw) was used by Hizbullah as an excuse to get violent and throw their weight and their guns around by killing lebanese people in order to push their agenda in those talks. The concessions that the government gave them go far beyond the phone network and so on.

In any case hizbullah is a minority party and would be a minority party under a basic system of parliamentary democracy, so they dont have the right to change the constitution either way. It isnt like the will of Lebanon's people is being suppressed and these guys are fighting to enact it. Quite the opposite actually. I think Lebanon would be well served by a more democratic system of government, but I dont see how that would change the level of threat that Hizbullah poses

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

And in terms of the shutting down of the network by the government, its debateable that the government had such authority . . . government is one with limited powers and under a democratic framework theory of government . . . the state must generally have a compelling interest in taking away certain freedoms . . .

It has nothing to do with freedoms, its about an illegal phone network. If you connect a phone line illegally between your house and some friends' houses the government will shut it down. I dont think there are any countries in the world where the government doesnt have the authority to regulate telecom networks.

The problem in Lebanon with Hizbullah is that this organization basically doesnt recognize the authority of the national government. They give their "Secretary General" the right to declare war, to fight wars, to make peace, to make diplomatic and trade decisions, to create communications and media networks, to shut down communications and media networks, to arrest, try, imprison, and execute people, and so on. We need to remember that Elmer Fudd and the Ayatollahs who run him are not the rulers of a nation, but simply party leaders. By whatever measure you want to use, they have grossly overstepped their bounds. Turning their guns on lebanese people is just another step in this progression, which will probably end with their rockets falling on Beirut (again) the same way they bombarded Haifa. Some of the worst devastation and the highest death tolls that Lebanon sustained during the civil war occurred when Hizbullah battled Amal in Beirut and turned the city into a bloodbath, and theres no reason to think that they are any less ruthless now considering the last few days

ws

[Jaysh]

May Allah [swt] destroy Hezbollah.

[bravotwozero]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Virtually all of the militias disarmed at the end of the civil war, or incorporated into the armed forces. There are a few armed elements left, notably hizbullah and some Palestinian factions in the refugee camps.
ws

What about Amal?

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by bravotwozero

What about Amal?

Amal which was responsible for most of the massacres of Sunni's is a secular militia...hence mossad trying to ignore it...he's nothing if not consistent...

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by bravotwozero

What about Amal?

Amal is tiny and weak, they are junior partners of the Hizbullah coalition, etc. There are also some other militias out there, like some Druze in the mountains and the Palestinians that i mentioned. But as i said, Hizbullah is the only one that injects their guns into public life as a consistent strategy in politics.

ws

[Jamroll]

I'm puzzled. How comes everyone's against Hezbullah all of a sudden? Wasn't everyone on Islamica getting happy back in the summer of '06 about how they were taking on Israel? Have they changed so much in 2 years?

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

I'm puzzled. How comes everyone's against Hezbullah all of a sudden? Wasn't everyone on Islamica getting happy back in the summer of '06 about how they were taking on Israel? Have they changed so much in 2 years?

Its because they were killing Lebanese people this time around. They havent changed. Winning the war against Israel was one success for them in a string of victories over the past few years.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Its because they were killing Lebanese people this time around

I see. But who are the Lebanese people they're killing? Is it just random civilians, or is it pro-Western (so by extension pro-Israeli) establishment figures and their supporters?

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

I see. But who are the Lebanese people they're killing? Is it just random civilians, or is it pro-Western (so by extension pro-Israeli) establishment figures and their supporters?

policemen and army soldiers and stuff

they attacked and took over some neighborhoods (ie: killed people) in Beirut to protest the government firing one of their officials who was in charge of security at the airport because he was allowing hizbullah members to videotape airplanes coming and going, and a government move to end their private unsanctioned telephone network. The government forces tried to fight back and retake the neighborhoods but hizbullah killed them too

ws

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

policemen and army soldiers and stuff

they attacked and took over some neighborhoods (ie: killed people) in Beirut to protest the government firing one of their officials who was in charge of security at the airport because he was allowing hizbullah members to videotape airplanes coming and going, and a government move to end their private unsanctioned telephone network. The government forces tried to fight back and retake the neighborhoods but hizbullah killed them too

ws

Hmm, I see. But don't Hezbullah have popular support? Also why is the government of Lebanon so weak? How can it be that they were so weak they could do nothing against Israeli attacks, but Hezbullah were able to hold their own? Doesn't it make sense for Hezbullah, a more stronger force to be in control of the country's security? Why do they have a private telephone network, and why is it a problem to the government? Btw, all these questions are just me being curious and trying to understand the situation, I'm not trying to debate you or anything at the moment.

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Hmm, I see. But don't Hezbullah have popular support? Also why is the government of Lebanon so weak? How can it be that they were so weak they could do nothing against Israeli attacks, but Hezbullah were able to hold their own? Doesn't it make sense for Hezbullah, a more stronger force to be in control of the country's security? Why do they have a private telephone network, and why is it a problem to the government? Btw, all these questions are just me being curious and trying to understand the situation, I'm not trying to debate you or anything at the moment.

you should really ask someone who's impartial

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Hmm, I see. But don't Hezbullah have popular support? Also why is the government of Lebanon so weak? How can it be that they were so weak they could do nothing against Israeli attacks, but Hezbullah were able to hold their own? Doesn't it make sense for Hezbullah, a more stronger force to be in control of the country's security? Why do they have a private telephone network, and why is it a problem to the government? Btw, all these questions are just me being curious and trying to understand the situation, I'm not trying to debate you or anything at the moment.

Hizbullah has popular support in some parts of Lebanon and are extremely hated in others.

Central government is weak for alot of reasons. They're always too terrified to unleash the lebanese Army (which is one of the only multicultural institutions in lebanon) because they dont want to start another civil war, which they certainly would. Also parliament has been locked in an impasse for over a year because of political conflicts between the opposition (including hizbullah) and the current government. Finally, the govt is rigged in some ways to be weak by two things, first of all the way the governing system was devised plays to communalism which means the country is always on the brink of all out war between the different groups. Secondly, the peace treaty at the end of the civil war put into effect measures to prevent further wars or dominance by one group. Importantly one of those measures was for all militias to disarm, which hizbullah and a few others ignored (and obviously the palestinians)

The Lebanese government chose not to fight the Israelis when they attacked, its not that they were powerless to fight them. They could have commanded Lebanese air defenses to fire on israeli jets and their infantry and armored forces to enter the war, but they decided not to.

It doesnt make sense for Hizbullah to be in charge of the country's security because they arent a national military that is accountable to the national government. They're the militia of a political party who answer only to their leaders

Hizbullah developed the phone network as part of the state within a state that they've constructed in south lebanon. They have checkpoints down there, official style government type offices, social services, jails, barracks, all kinds of facilities that political parties have no business having. The government wanted to take down their phone network because of two reasons- first, its illegal and gives hizbullah too much autonomy, second it would be a nice victory against Hizbullah. The leader of Hizbullah said that the phone network is one of Hizbullah's weapons and he would cut off the hand that tried to take it. So thats why Hizbullah killed people when the government tried to shut it down

(alot of that is my opinion obviously)
ws

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Hmm, I see. But don't Hezbullah have popular support? Also why is the government of Lebanon so weak? How can it be that they were so weak they could do nothing against Israeli attacks, but Hezbullah were able to hold their own? Doesn't it make sense for Hezbullah, a more stronger force to be in control of the country's security? Why do they have a private telephone network, and why is it a problem to the government? Btw, all these questions are just me being curious and trying to understand the situation, I'm not trying to debate you or anything at the moment.

It depends on whether you believe this is a 'Shia v Sunni' war or an 'Iran v America' war..