[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

I love how all these complicated theories are being put forth by armchair quarterbacks, giving wild and lengthy explanations when the people actually fighting dont even know the meaning of the term "demographic shift."

Hey, shift happens.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

I love how all these complicated theories are being put forth by armchair quarterbacks, giving wild and lengthy explanations when the people actually fighting dont even know the meaning of the term "demographic shift."

They aren't that complicated. If you read the news, its pretty apparent that its a little more nuanced then "You Shia, Me Sunni, Me Kill You."

[Haramoobobi]

Originally Posted by heba

inna lilla wa inna lillahi rajioon

my cousin (my dads niece, her husband, and daughter) were driving into saida and they hit a checkpoint where hizballah pieces of sh*t were standing. they sked them what village theyre from, they said kfarshouba (my dads village- its one of the few sunni villages in the south of leb), and they shot them. dead. after the daughter saw her parents get shot she tried to run away and they put 4 bullets into her (shes dying in the hospital now). because they were from a sunni village. wow. wow wow wow.

these f****ing pieces of sh*t bastards hizballah. seriously i cannot WAIT till they all get what they deserve. i want each and every one of them to die a slow torturous death inshallah and then id love to watch them burn in hell over and over and over again.

this is so upsetting my entire family is in saida. alhamdulillah my cousin got out of beirut and is back home but its like nowhere is safe....

inna lilla wa inna lillahi rajioon...
I seriously can't believe people believe in Hezbollah propaganda... Lebanon, which is the most liberal state in the Middle East, because of its sectarian government, I believe is presently at a crossroads that may influence the future of the whole Middle East. This is true because its government, based on the confessionalism, is a government that is the most diverse and that gives its people the greatest representation. But, as a result, it is also the weakest point of the government because it tends to be fragmented and divided on issues. Because of the diverse interests and points of view of its government members, it is often unable to unify on any major issue. As a result, the confessional government is both a source of great strength as well as great weakness in Lebanon.
There are other factors that add to the weakness of Lebanon. The fact that armed militia groups such as Hezbollah and foreign countries, such as Syria, occupy and influence the government, has greatly undermined the strength of the confessional government. Hezbollah stood off the call for surrender of arms. This was partly because it had the backing of Syria and Iran as well as the Shiite population in Lebanon, which is a group that did not integrate well into Lebanese liberalism. Additionally, they claimed the impending threat of Israel as another reason to hold onto their arms.
But how can fair and peaceful talks occur when one side has arms (namely Hezbollah) and the other is armless (namely the middle class that supports civil society)?!?!
Hezbollah, by its nature, undermines the goals of the Lebanese government. It is a group that is violent, supported by Syrian and Iranian interests and the interests of the Lebanese Shiites, who are not integrating well into the liberal society that Lebanon wishes to further develop. One major problem is that Hezbollah is not clearly seen by the world for what it really is. Even in the West, there is a tendency to view this group as a regional ‘Robin Hood’—so don’t believe this haramoobobi-ness. Hezbollah is just helping to further alienate the Shia population.
I really hope the best for Lebanon, if anything were to happen—like being invaded by Syria—I doubt the world would bat an eyelash.
Seems like my maronite friend is going to be stuck in Paris for some time

[Jetmir]

hizbushaytan

[AmroodWaala]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

I love how all these complicated theories are being put forth by armchair quarterbacks, giving wild and lengthy explanations when the people actually fighting dont even know the meaning of the term "demographic shift."

The theories are based on analysis of past & present, books written on the topic, opinions of journalists, interviews by politicians, etc.

While it's true that gunmen in the streets may have little sense of such things, but behind those gunmen are writers, think-tanks, and 'armchair quarterbacks' with their own advisers. Pretty much true with every organization/institution.

e.g. I doubt a typical US soldier has even heard about AEI or knows the extent to which his active military life is dictated by the strategies proposed by 'armchair quarterbacks' in such organizations.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

I love how all these complicated theories are being put forth by armchair quarterbacks, giving wild and lengthy explanations when the people actually fighting dont even know the meaning of the term "demographic shift."

you mean the resident Kristols, Wolfowitz's etc of Islamica....

Originally Posted by Haramoobobi

inna lilla wa inna lillahi rajioon...
I seriously can't believe people believe in Hezbollah propaganda... Lebanon, which is the most liberal state in the Middle East, because of its sectarian government, I believe is presently at a crossroads that may influence the future of the whole Middle East. This is true because its government, based on the confessionalism, is a government that is the most diverse and that gives its people the greatest representation. But, as a result, it is also the weakest point of the government because it tends to be fragmented and divided on issues. Because of the diverse interests and points of view of its government members, it is often unable to unify on any major issue. As a result, the confessional government is both a source of great strength as well as great weakness in Lebanon.
There are other factors that add to the weakness of Lebanon. The fact that armed militia groups such as Hezbollah and foreign countries, such as Syria, occupy and influence the government, has greatly undermined the strength of the confessional government. Hezbollah stood off the call for surrender of arms. This was partly because it had the backing of Syria and Iran as well as the Shiite population in Lebanon, which is a group that did not integrate well into Lebanese liberalism. Additionally, they claimed the impending threat of Israel as another reason to hold onto their arms.
But how can fair and peaceful talks occur when one side has arms (namely Hezbollah) and the other is armless (namely the middle class that supports civil society)?!?!
Hezbollah, by its nature, undermines the goals of the Lebanese government. It is a group that is violent, supported by Syrian and Iranian interests and the interests of the Lebanese Shiites, who are not integrating well into the liberal society that Lebanon wishes to further develop. One major problem is that Hezbollah is not clearly seen by the world for what it really is. Even in the West, there is a tendency to view this group as a regional ‘Robin Hood’—so don’t believe this haramoobobi-ness. Hezbollah is just helping to further alienate the Shia population.
I really hope the best for Lebanon, if anything were to happen—like being invaded by Syria—I doubt the world would bat an eyelash.
Seems like my maronite friend is going to be stuck in Paris for some time

May Allah swt help your Maronite friend

Originally Posted by AmroodWaala

The theories are based on analysis of past & present, books written on the topic, opinions of journalists, interviews by politicians, etc.

While it's true that gunmen in the streets may have little sense of such things, but behind those gunmen are writers, think-tanks, and 'armchair quarterbacks' with their own advisers. Pretty much true with every organization/institution.

e.g. I doubt a typical US soldier has even heard about AEI or knows the extent to which his active military life is dictated by the strategies proposed by 'armchair quarterbacks' in such organizations.

ditto.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

why is hezbullah being solely to blame? the fact is that lebanon is being used as a proxy war by different regional powers, including the u.s. the saudi-u.s. alliance backs sa'ad harriri's party and is arming them. Its not a case of armed hezbullah vs an entire innocent unarmed population backed by syria and iran. the other factions in lebanon are armed too. after all who is hezbullah shooting at? who is shooting at hezbullah? people talk so much about 'hezbulah' propoganda, what about this propoganda that is being put out? let's stick to the facts for what they are on the ground on what is going on. everything that im saying, is based on what is being reported on al jazeera for the most part. I have been watching bbc news as well, but for the most part its been al jazeera. and what they are saying is radically different than what people are getting from western media reports which is out to paint hezbullah as the red demon in this whole thing.

now i dont know if this was heba's relatives or not. but bbc world news showed a report tonite about a family that was tragically killed by a shia group allied to hezbullah and thier funeral was held today under gun fire. ill try and post that link up once they stick it up on youtube.

[AmroodWaala]

here's an opinion of a journalist who has been reporting from the region for decades:

Robert Fisk: Hizbollah rules west Beirut in Iran's proxy war with US

Saturday, 10 May 2008

Another American humiliation. The Shia gunmen who drove past my apartment in west Beirut yesterday afternoon were hooting their horns, making V-signs, leaning out of the windows of SUVs with their rifles in the air, proving to the Muslims of the capital that the elected government of Lebanon has lost.

And it has. The national army still patrols the streets, but solely to prevent sectarian killings or massacres. Far from dismantling the pro-Iranian Hizbollah's secret telecommunications system – and disarming the Hizbollah itself – the cabinet of Fouad Siniora sits in the old Turkish serail in Beirut, denouncing violence with the same authority as the Iraqi government in Baghdad's green zone.

The Lebanese army watches the Hizbollah road-blocks. And does nothing. As a Tehran versus Washington conflict, Iran has won, at least for now. Walid Jumblatt, the Druze leader and MP and a pro-American supporter of Mr Siniora's government, is isolated in his home in west Beirut, but has not been harmed. The same applies to Saad Hariri, one of the most prominent government MPs and the son of the murdered former prime minister Rafik Hariri. He remains in his west Beirut palace in Koreitem, guarded by police and soldiers but unable to move without Hizbollah's approval. The symbolism is everything.

When Hamas became part of the Palestinian government, the West rejected it. So Hamas took over Gaza. When the Hizbollah became part of the Lebanese government, the Americans rejected it. Now Hizbollah has taken over west Beirut. The parallels are not exact, of course. Hamas won a convincing electoral victory. Hizbollah was a minority in the Lebanese government; its withdrawal from cabinet seats with other Shias was occasioned by Mr Siniora's American-defined policies and by their own electoral inability to change these. The Lebanese don't want an Islamic republic any more than the Palestinians. But when Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, the Hizbollah chairman, told a press conference that this was a "new era" for Lebanon, he meant what he said.

Mr Hariri's Future Television offices were invested by the army after Hizbollah surrounded it on Thursday night, its staff evacuated and the station switched off. When I turned up there yesterday morning, I joined a queue for manouche – Lebanon's hot cheese breakfast sandwiches – at Eyman's bakery in Watwat Street. I patiently waited behind four black-hooded gunmen from Hizbollah's allied (but highly venal) Amal movement only to find uniformed Lebanese soldiers representing the government patiently queuing at the next window. Law and disorder, it seems, both have to eat.

But I found far more powerful symbolism in Hamra Street, one of west Beirut's two main commercial thoroughfares. More than 100 Hizbollah men were standing or patrolling the highway, clad in new camouflage fatigues, wearing new black flak jackets and new black, peaked, American-style baseball caps and – more to the point – what appeared to be equally new American sniper rifles..

No, this is not a revolution. No, this is not a "hijacking" of west Beirut or the airport, which remains cut off by burning tyres on roads guarded by Hizbollah militiamen. But the government's supporters deserve some space. Several pointed out that the Israelis closed Beirut airport in 2006. So what right did Hizbollah have to do the same to the Lebanese now? And, according to Saad Hariri, Mr Nasrallah – when he called Mr Jumblatt "a thief and a killer" – was "authorising his murder and clearly stating that, 'I am the state and the state is me'." No wonder, then, that Mr Jumblatt fears for his life and that Mr Hariri claims the Hizbollah's coup de folie is a form of fitna, the Arabic for chaos. "I invite you, Sayed Nasrallah, to take back your fighters from the streets and to lift the siege of Beirut to protect the unity of Muslims," he said. "Israel will be rejoicing at the blockade of the country and the collapse of its economy."

Marwan Hamade, Mr Siniora's Telecommunications Minister – and victim of an attempted assassination in 2004 – admitted he had turned a blind eye to Hizbollah's underground phone system but could no longer when he realised that Hizbollah now maintains 99,000 numbered lines.

Mr Nasrallah also insisted on the reinstallation of Brigadier General Wafiq Chucair as head of security at Beirut airport, since he was not a member of Hizbollah. General Chucair was suspended after Mr Jumblatt claimed he worked for Mr Nasrallah's outfit, a demand which prompted Mr Jumblatt to say he did not know General Chucair was so important to Mr Nasrallah that it was worth closing the international airport.

And so it goes on. There was an unusually good editorial in the French-language daily L'Orient Le Jour, which asked how the Hizbollah – literally "the party of God" in Arabic – could have war as its raison d'etre yet be a factor of stability and security in Lebanese domestic affairs. "And this party, can it really call itself the 'Party of God' without creating, in the long term, the distrust of all those other children who count themselves to be from the same unique and one God?"

No, this is not a civil war. Nor is it a coup d'etat, though it meets some of the criteria. It is part of the war against America in the Middle East. The Hizbollah "must stop sowing trouble," the White House said rather meekly. Yes, like the Taliban. And al-Qa'ida. And the Iraqi insurgents. And Hamas. And who else?

Robert Fisk: Hizbollah rules west Beirut in Iran's proxy war with US - Robert Fisk, News - The Independent

------

resonates with some posters here.

[heba]

airport is reopening, and guns and stuff are off the streets alhamdulillah

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by heba

airport is reopening, and guns and stuff are off the streets alhamdulillah

alhamdulillah the violence has ended

but I'm pretty disappointed in Lebanon's government. The government made and enacted decisions in a way that was totally legal. Hizbullah got upset by them and decided to attack Beirut, kill people, overtake parts of the city and shut down media outlets, etc. So the government gave in to their demands and did what they wanted. Hizbullah is terrorizing the government and people of Lebanon. Any time things dont go their way, they can threaten to turn their guns on lebanese people again, as they just did.

I dont know what the alternative would have been. Its a relief that the bloodshed is over. But something is going to have to be done at some point.

ws

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

The government made and enacted decisions in a way that was totally legal.

did hizbullah recognize the legality of that action? did they care?

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

did hizbullah recognize the legality of that action? did they care?

No, because they're a dangerous destabilizing militia that has created a state within a state in Lebanon and (naturally) dont want to be dislodged from that position, and their weapons give them the ability to ignore lebanon's law and constitution as they see fit. And now they've proven their willingness to kill their countrymen in order to preserve their right to flaunt their country's laws.

Thats why they have to be dealt with and disarmed at some point.

ws

[roberto]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

No, because they're a dangerous destabilizing militia that has created a state within a state in Lebanon and (naturally) dont want to be dislodged from that position, and their weapons give them the ability to ignore lebanon's law and constitution as they see fit. And now they've proven their willingness to kill their countrymen in order to preserve their right to flaunt their country's laws.

Thats why they have to be dealt with and disarmed at some point.

ws

And the sooner the better