[heba]

i just want to tell everyone i was mistaken and it wasnt hizballah that killed my family members- it was another shia group in lebanon (i cant remember what its called).

and id also like to tell the guy who called me a liar that there WERE reports. we didnt know it happened until we saw it on the news and saw their names. so, kindly stfu.

update: my cousins daughter is still in the hospital. duaa that she makes it is appreciated

my aunt, who works for the UN, is stranded in her home they wont let her leave. and shes in a heavily populated area of druz. so were a little worried since theyre getting in on all the fighting. and my brother is trying to get his wife out of there and to Canada ASAP. inshallah everything works out. its pretty scary, schools cancelled and no ones leaving their homes.

anyway, i dont want to ge tinto whatever debates are happenin in this thread. lebanon is so f'ed up. period.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Kadhim

I think people need to calm down and do some serious sanity check reflection on the situation. Hezballah has been pretty consistent in the padt years in being a leading force to resist efforts to spin Western-led provocations like assassinations, etc. into destablilization. So suggestions that this turmoil was about Hezballah trying to destabilize Lebanon or selfishly seize power unprovoked should be looked at with a critical eye.

My understanding is that the situation was as follows. Up until the past weeks, serious discussions were taking place, with some considerable success, to determine a peaceful way to fairly share power in Lebanon. Then, a few weeks ago, Saad Hariri returned from several months in Saudi Arabia (where, presumably, he got his latest orders from **** Cheney, who was in Saudi on an overlapping visit). Suddenly, the tone changed 180 degrees and Siniora and the government turned very agressively against Hezbollah. A Hezbollah official at the airport was fired on some lame excuse and orders were made to shut down the Hezbollah TV station. Militias representing Hariri were out in the streets first, and attacked Hezballah and Amal. Apparently Hezbollah then seized these men and turned them over to the army. The Hariri gangs were part of the reason behind the seizure of the Hariri station.
The army pressured the government to back down, and the situation has cooled.

This incident should be understood properly in the context of perennial efforts by the US, Britain, and Israel to stir up trouble in Lebanon and the middle east in general.
In particular, it is linked as well to larger ambitions by the British and American neo-cons to launch war against Syria and Iran.

EDIT: I will also add for the record, to be perfectly clear, that any general level approval on my part of the repsonse of Hezbollah as an organization as a whole to this situation does not in any way excuse any improper action by individuals nominally attached to the organization. On the contrary, anyone who went out of line, intentionally killing unarmed civilians, whether actually with Hezballah or pretending to be as some smear operation has my complete condemnation from the depths of my being. If such actions were carried out by a Hezballah soldier, then I hope that Hezbollah's internal "quality control" department rapidly re-assigns such individuals to a shallow grave on the south side.
Over and out.

Its a power-play by Hizbullah, just like the war they created with Israel and the assassinations they committed and so on.

This group has mastered the art of seizing on tiny inconsequential events as an excuse to murder people and throw their weight around.

They are committing treason against their nation's government because some guy got fired from the airport. Think about that.

[TrentReznor858]

Originally Posted by heba

anyway, i dont want to ge tinto whatever debates are happenin in this thread. lebanon is so f'ed up. period.

Understood, your family is in my prayers.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

If the conflict is local, what is driving it? Religious divide? Territory? Power?

Lebanon is locked in a neverending power-struggle. It has nothing to do with religious doctrine, because the various religious factions are constantly stabbing each other in the back and making deals with each other (which can never happen in a doctrinal conflict). The problem with lebanon is that it has a weak central government, a fractious population, no way for any one group to completely dominate the others, and no willingness to really compromise. Some lebanese blame the french, some blame the ottomans, some blame the saudis, some blame syria or iran, some blame america or israel. The reality is that intolerance combined with the primacy of communal identity in lebanese society are to blame. just my opinion

ws

[TrentReznor858]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Lebanon is locked in a neverending power-struggle. It has nothing to do with religious doctrine, because the various religious factions are constantly stabbing each other in the back and making deals with each other (which can never happen in a doctrinal conflict). The problem with lebanon is that it has a weak central government, a fractious population, no way for any one group to completely dominate the others, and no willingness to really compromise. Some lebanese blame the french, some blame the ottomans, some blame the saudis, some blame syria or iran, some blame america or israel. The reality is that intolerance combined with the primacy of communal identity in lebanese society are to blame. just my opinion

ws

That is not something that can be changed with occupation or invasion....that is embedded in the culture, would take a lifetime to get anything accomplished

[MossadConspiracy]

it has been going on for many lifetimes. Khalil Gibran was alluding to these same conflicts back in the 1920s in his english and arabic works.

Lebanon has an opportunity to become a true multicultural society. It would be quite unique among Arab states if it did this. The alternative is to continue fighting the same conflicts over and over for the next couple of centuries as they did in the previous ones.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

Are you being sarcastic?

No dude, I'm being totally serious. Think of when you speak to someone one-on-one versus trying to reason with a group. The single person will usually listen to your arguments and make his own decision on whether to accept it or not. The group often goes into tribal or mob mentality, and nothing you say can make an impact when that happens.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

The conflict in Lebanon is not like that. Interference from abroad has been part of it for centuries but the engines that drive the conflict are all purely local, on the level of individual villages and neighborhoods. The political conflict that you describe is ocurring within a country where identity politics defined by sect and ethnicity has been the norm for hundreds of years. Sect and politics are not separate in lebanon

ws

If it was purely sectarian, then the general pattern would be all sunnis versus all shias versus all christians and all druze, but thats not the on the grounds reality. There are sunnis that support shia groups and their are shias that support sunni groups and christians that support Muslims, etc. Sectarian identity is a part of the conflict, but it doesn't give a full explanation of people from different sects cooperating with people from different sects or religions.

In terms of the external influences, its clear that funding and pressure is coming from outside of the country for the political actors within the country to do so something about other groups. I'm not postulating that there is a direct command and control structure, but since its inception, the politics within Lebanon have been influenced from beyond it as well. The biggest confrontational forces in the country happen to be those who get money from two external opponents.

[TrentReznor858]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

In terms of the external influences, its clear that funding and pressure is coming from outside of the country for the political actors within the country to do so something about other groups. I'm not postulating that there is a direct command and control structure, but since its inception, the politics within Lebanon have been influenced from beyond it as well. The biggest confrontational forces in the country happen to be those who get money from two external opponents.

Are you saying it is another proxy war?

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

If it was purely sectarian, then the general pattern would be all sunnis versus all shias versus all christians and all druze, but thats not the on the grounds reality. There are sunnis that support shia groups and their are shias that support sunni groups and christians that support Muslims, etc. Sectarian identity is a part of the conflict, but it doesn't give a full explanation of people from different sects cooperating with people from different sects or religions.

Salam

you're right, thats a good point. Alot of other factors are involved. Nationality is one, local clan conflicts are another, and yes politics is a factor. But the biggest contributing factor is sect. The fact is, the political parties in Lebanon are almost all sectarian, or non-sectarian but just coincidentally have all of their members from a single sect. There are multiple shia parties, multiple sunni ones, multiple druze and christian ones, etc. These groups form coalitions and alliances and sometimes parties from the same sect will be on opposite sides because of rivalries they have with one another. For example, currently two druze factions are killing each other because one of them is allied to Hizbullah. Ultimately, however, these are all still parties and factions that are communal (mostly sectarian and local), and this is why Lebanese communities have been so susceptible to warlords for so many decades.

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

In terms of the external influences, its clear that funding and pressure is coming from outside of the country for the political actors within the country to do so something about other groups. I'm not postulating that there is a direct command and control structure, but since its inception, the politics within Lebanon have been influenced from beyond it as well. The biggest confrontational forces in the country happen to be those who get money from two external opponents.

The politics of all countries are influenced from beyond their borders. But its rare for a country to be in a constant cycle of disintegration and reconstitution the way Lebanon has been. There are things that are unique and specific to Lebanon that cause these things to happen so frequently there.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

i was thinking that it might have been the Amal militia who was involved with what happend to Heba's relatives. But at least we can confirm that Hezbullah was not involved.

as to the propoganda that mossad, once again is spewing out. Once again he pinning ALL the blame on hezbullah. No Hezbullah didnt take to the streets because thier man was fired from his job. now he has been reinstated. however it was over thier communications network that thier man at the beirut international airport was fired over, which is part of the reason that set them off. As Nasrallah explained in his nationally televised speech aired on al jazeera, they need this communication to defend against the actions of the isrealis, which mossad so dearly defends. Not only that, he blams hezbullah because they refuse to tow the washington line, which is run by big powerful zionist lobbyies, like aipac. whether you support them or not, im not going to accuse you of anything, but you should know the power of aipac. Not only that, another post here explained in full detail how sa'ad harri's party had been going trigger happy over the past few weeks now. mossad is trying to claim the hezbullah is trying to stage a military coup. which they could have done at any time by now but have not done so. not only that, hezbullah has left west beirut and handed it over to the lebanese army. If anything hezbullah has been co-operating with the government, as the actions on the ground speak, and this political violence is going on between different political parties that are not part of the government of prime minister siniora in itself.

please watch nasrallah's speech here for his version. I am not hezbullah i dont speak for hezbullah, so let them speak for themselves - YouTube - Nasrallah addresses Lebanon - 08 May 08 (with English translation voice-over)

Hezbollah's leader has warned the government's moves to close the Shia group's private telephone network are tantamount to "a declaration of war".

Al Jazeera broadcast extracts of his speech.

now here is the latest al jazeera report (In english) and the mayor of tripoli, lebanon, who is a sunni allied with hezbullah says this is political, and that the govt is trying to make it into a sunni-shia conflict which it is not. According to Al Jazeera's reporter she says that there is a great danger that this will turn into a sunni vs sunni conflict in fact. you can watch the entire report here on youtube:



YouTube - Violence flares in city of Tripoli, Lebanon - 12 May 08

Added: May 11, 2008
Al Jazeera's Zeina Khodr reports from the north of Beirut, where Lebanese army troops have been deployed in the city of Tripoli, to end the fierce fighting between pro and anti government supporters. Thousands of people have fled their homes and several were reportedly killed.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Okay, and what will you do with that anger? Wave your fist at them? What will that accomplishment?

I'm not defending either Hezbullah or the Sunni factions. I'm pointing out that the situation is complicated and people need to exercise self-restraint.

YOU reminded me of that picture of NUh that was floating around here back in the day..hahah

As for what will I do with the anger? I will use it to educate peopel about Muslims and Islam so I don't get associated with Aggressors and Oppressors.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

YouTube - Fighting dividing Mount Lebanon - 13 May 2008

Al Jazeera's Zeina Khodr, reports from Mount Lebanon, on the fighting between the Druze and the Muslim Shiites, dividing the area.