[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by roberto

Then you were still 15 years from you birth

yes and i was looking down and thinking, 'what a....sad fellow' ahem

The shortages applied to all, immigrants have the same rights for services,

Yes they did, but he implied they existed because of the influx of immigrants and didn't say anything about healthcare needing to be improved. That gave the subtle impression that immigrants were the problem and the problem to lack of healthcare was to get rid of the immigrants.

Well that’s what you keep saying but you don’t identify the pertinent comments

I quoted them

But not forced re-immergration this is what he said:

Nobody can make an estimate of the numbers which, with generous assistance, would choose either to return to their countries of origin or to go to other countries anxious to receive the manpower and the skills they represent

Generous assistance, after they were uprooted from their culture and placed in one which offered no sympathy or help in integration. So they were offered money to be uprooted again and go back to a society, which again would have unbalanced their lives. This is what i mean when i say your ethnocentric. You take his words literally and with best intention, in the context they were received, they did nothing but make a bad situation even worse. Re-emigration is patronising and devalues a human being, making their efforts a commodity and ignoring the effects it had on each individual.

Sure he was terrified :His speach was made in 1968 , rather a long time befor you were born or do you claim that people of that age thought the same as you

So you agree he was terrified of people like me so he should be

[roberto]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

You don't live in England.

You don't know anything about England.
Witness for instance your claims of 'British' law.
and fury because ethnic minorities were following an
English common law tradition.

Your entire knowledge of England is based
upon selective reading of a few newsmedia.

Thus your claims that 'Enoch Powell wasn't a racist' should
be treated with the greatest of scepticism.

Pushpa check "Race, Community and Conflict. Oxford: by Rex & Moore

Sparrow,

For someone who wrote:

"Can somebody trash this thread. He's promoting a fascist racist on this website who was expelled from his own party because of his racism."

you seem to be excessively excited. Do you read the Daily Mail as a well?

[roberto]

[quote=Bluestar;131602]

yes and i was looking down and thinking, 'what a....sad fellow' ahem

Well you have the advantage of time travel

Yes they did, but he implied they existed because of the influx of immigrants and didn't say anything about healthcare needing to be improved. That gave the subtle impression that immigrants were the problem and the problem to lack of healthcare was to get rid of the immigrants.

There are two ways of dealing with a forecast overload: reduce it or expand the service, such action do not imply blame

I quoted them

I am not going to join a "yes you did, no you didn't "

however check back and you will find many "I have search Enoch Powell speech and cannot find the above"

Generous assistance, after they were uprooted from their culture and placed in one which offered no sympathy or help in integration.

Now which way round is this; we have immigration into the UK with generous help and we have voluntary re-immigration with help.

Which one are you moaning about?

So they were offered money to be uprooted again and go back to a society, which again would have unbalanced their lives.

Its an offer

This is what i mean when i say your ethnocentric. You take his words literally and with best intention, in the context they were received, they did nothing but make a bad situation even worse.

I fail to see how lookig the other way helps anything or anybody

Re-emigration is patronising and devalues a human being,

How, why?

making their efforts a commodity and ignoring the effects it had on each individual

Explain

[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by roberto

There are two ways of dealing with a forecast overload: reduce it or expand the service, such action do not imply blame

Yes they can, decision that are made and called for show a person's quality.

Now which way round is this; we have immigration into the UK with generous help and we have voluntary re-immigration with help.
Which one are you moaning about?

You mean like when they do dawn raids and take people immediately to send them back to a country they obviously don't want to go to but are somehow bound to it because that's where their life began? They offer money when they break their doors down and come tumbling in? Or do they offer money when they know they're sending back people who are likely to get raped/imprisoned/tortured in their own country?

We only have emigration to come inside england when the person overseas is already rich and probably could already have paid their ticket. Not for the ones who actually need to get out of a violent situation, unless of course you could show a case study which disproves me?

Its an offer

A convenient one, if someone came to my house for dinner or stayed as a guest for a couple of days, i'd never tell them "here's a tenner, could you go now?"

I fail to see how lookig the other way helps anything or anybody

Explain please. I'm not going to take the time to try and decipher half hearted sentences if you can't be bothered to explain properly yourself.

How, why?

They come over to work, their efforts are 'equalised' by merely a subsistent wage. They may live here for a few years, make friends, settle down, kind of like the Israelis actually, they had no right to be there but the fact they settled down gave their arguments and position greater weight. Of course, morally the immigrants are different, they don't make settlements out of old palestinian homes and burn down olive trees. You should be thankful They work hard and support their families. And then, when they're kindly bribed to go back to their country, nobody sees the fact that these people have struggles already, they have worked hard contributing to the country they live in. All people see is a funny accent and incommunicable emotions which form themselves into a divide, stark enough to create fear on both sides. Nobody questions the existence of borders, or how and why a human being can be labelled as "illegal", they just follow the system like slaves.


In Boston, Lincolnshire a lot of the population are complaining that Polish people have taken over. A load of polish people bought independent shops and made them into polish shops.

Do you think that this is good or bad?

Most of the English people were complaining (kind of how they did when indians began the cornershop wave) and they say this is unfair because it's taken away all the nice, english, quaint, independent shops that existed before.

I can understand that, i like independent, quaint shops (even though they're devilishly expensive sometimes! Although there's a lovely, cheap one in Swanage called the curiousity shop, very impressive).

The thing is, they don't actually realise that english people could have had a fair place in the market, they could have bought the places but they didn't, why?

a) Because they have no money
b) because they don't want to have the hassle of being self employed.

Option A usually is caused by the fact that Polish people in this country save more, they work the factory jobs that normal English people don't want to work and they save money until it becomes capital. Whereas English people, will enjoy going out on the piss and having entertainment hand in hand with work.

B comes from the fact that people don't want the hassle of taking their work home, working more than 7.5/8 hours in a day, dealing with stock, accounts, tax. In England, 9-5 days working under a superior are normalised, people think there's job security in that. In most places abroad, self employment is the main type of employment and so it's something that they're used to in regards to habits, good at and familiar with it's workings. According to my understanding, option B is the one that is causing the problem which you/enoch think/thought was caused by immigrants.

In the paper a couple of days ago, there was an individual comment about this persons disgust of how nobody celebrated St Georges' Day. It's not that other cultures exists along side the English one and threaten it, it's just that people feel disillusioned with it. Those who are still loyal to the english culture feel threatened and like Powell point the finger at anything different.

Anyway, the percentage of English people who live in Spain or anywhere else abroad is increasing. So it's not as if population control is needed. So i don't understand why Enoch's speech should be relevant today, whilst i also criticise how it would be beneficially relevant then.

You should read The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists, it explains why and how the arguments of immigration and machinery causing unemployment are wrong. How the system of wealth distribution and monetary value cause poverty and destitution.

Explain

Explain please.

[roberto]

[quote=Bluestar;132083]

Yes they can, decision that are made and called for show a person's quality.

You are responding to a question that was not posed presumably because the true answer is not to your liking

You mean like when they do dawn raids and take people immediately to send them back to a country they obviously don't want to go to but are somehow bound to it because that's where their life began? They offer money when they break their doors down and come tumbling in? Or do they offer money when they know they're sending back people who are likely to get raped/imprisoned/tortured in their own country?

You are relating to forced entry for arrest of illegal’s with a view to return, providing there is no danger of torture, to country of origin is a totally different case to an offer of voluntary re-immigration

We only have emigration to come inside england when the person overseas is already rich and probably could already have paid their ticket. Not for the ones who actually need to get out of a violent situation, unless of course you could show a case study which disproves me?

There are I’m sure lots of case studies however there are always exceptions, I suggest you look at this site which describes what the UK does in respect of refugees

UNHCR in the UK - What we do in the UK

A convenient one, if someone came to my house for dinner or stayed as a guest for a couple of days, i'd never tell them "here's a tenner, could you go now?"

A stupid comparison

Explain please. I'm not going to take the time to try and decipher half hearted sentences if you can't be bothered to explain properly yourself.

A cop out

They come over to work, their efforts are 'equalised' by merely a subsistent wage. They may live here for a few years, make friends, settle down, kind of like the Israelis actually, they had no right to be there but the fact they settled down gave their arguments and position greater weight. Of course, morally the immigrants are different, they don't make settlements out of old palestinian homes and burn down olive trees. You should be thankful They work hard and support their families. And then, when they're kindly bribed to go back to their country, nobody sees the fact that these people have struggles already, they have worked hard contributing to the country they live in. All people see is a funny accent and incommunicable emotions which form themselves into a divide, stark enough to create fear on both sides. Nobody questions the existence of borders, or how and why a human being can be labelled as "illegal", they just follow the system like slaves.

Your unfounded bitterness makes you irrational and as such i will not respond to this .

In Boston, Lincolnshire a lot of the population are complaining that Polish people have taken over. A load of polish people bought independent shops and made them into polish shops.

Do you think that this is good or bad?

Good,it's commendable

Most of the English people were complaining (kind of how they did when indians began the cornershop wave) and they say this is unfair because it's taken away all the nice, english, quaint, independent shops that existed before.

I can understand that, i like independent, quaint shops (even though they're devilishly expensive sometimes! Although there's a lovely, cheap one in Swanage called the curiousity shop, very impressive).

The thing is, they don't actually realise that english people could have had a fair place in the market, they could have bought the places but they didn't, why?

a) Because they have no money
b) because they don't want to have the hassle of being self employed.

Option A usually is caused by the fact that Polish people in this country save more, they work the factory jobs that normal English people don't want to work and they save money until it becomes capital. Whereas English people, will enjoy going out on the piss and having entertainment hand in hand with work.

B comes from the fact that people don't want the hassle of taking their work home, working more than 7.5/8 hours in a day, dealing with stock, accounts, tax. In England, 9-5 days working under a superior are normalised, people think there's job security in that. In most places abroad, self employment is the main type of employment and so it's something that they're used to in regards to habits, good at and familiar with it's workings. According to my understanding, option B is the one that is causing the problem which you/enoch think/thought was caused by immigrants.

Well this is a new one, you limit my response to two options and then you define those options.

I’ll try without your help: The phasing out of English owned corner shops occurred as a result of the competition from super markets, which could only be countered by accepting very long opening hours and smaller profit margins , other nationalities were prepared to accept these less lucrative businesses

In the paper a couple of days ago, there was an individual comment about this persons disgust of how nobody celebrated St Georges' Day. It's not that other cultures exists along side the English one and threaten it, it's just that people feel disillusioned with it.

I would suggest that they can't be bothered

Those who are still loyal to the english culture feel threatened and like Powell point the finger at anything different.

Really,

Anyway, the percentage of English people who live in Spain or anywhere else abroad is increasing. So it's not as if population control is needed. So i don't understand why Enoch's speech should be relevant today, whilst i also criticise how it would be beneficially relevant then.

Just look at the increase in UK population figures

[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by roberto

You are responding to a question that was not posed presumably because the true answer is not to your liking

It wasn't an answer to a question, it would be better if you read what i responded to.

You are relating to forced entry for arrest of illegal’s with a view to return, providing there is no danger of torture, to country of origin is a totally different case to an offer of voluntary re-immigration

not necessarily forced entry. After their visa could have run out and the Home Office haven't accepted their request to stay. These people have needs to, most of them contribute to the economy illegally if they have to. I don't like the fact you call them illegals.

There are I’m sure lots of case studies however there are always exceptions, I suggest you look at this site which describes what the UK does in respect of refugees

UNHCR in the UK - What we do in the UK

umm no sorry. I've seen enough of generous british policy that exists on the face of it all. A personal account would be preferable.

A stupid comparison

not at all, most things can be broken down to simple situations. That is exactly what it's like, only the fact that it's a government and a lot more complicated and all the inferior citizens wouldn't understand; they have to make law after law, form after form, policy after policy to ensure anyone who is looking to seek residency in this country has to go through a nightmare to do it. If only Dickens was alive now, he'd see that his circumlocution office hasn't changed much.

Your unfounded bitterness makes you irrational and as such i will not respond to this .

well that's very convenient for you isn't it? I ask you to challenge the notions of borders and labelling people as legal and illegal and you ignore it altogether. Yet they're principles that should be thought of before even considering immigration.

Good,it's commendable

I'm glad you think so

Well this is a new one, you limit my response to two options and then you define those options.

I’ll try without your help: The phasing out of English owned corner shops occurred as a result of the competition from super markets, which could only be countered by accepting very long opening hours and smaller profit margins , other nationalities were prepared to accept these less lucrative businesses

You shouldn't be so paranoid, i wasn't lmiting your choices or trying to "help" you, that was my way of looking at it and i was fully aware people may have additions or a completely different way of perceiving it

The phasing out of independent shops has been because of supermarkets in the past but i don't think that's the case anymore. I've found products in independent shops cheaper than i have in supermarkets and a lot of people in England want the personal touch. If people wanted to do it, they could and there's a high chance they woud succeed.

Just look at the increase in UK population figures

That's ok, there's plenty of room. Since i was born in 1985 and have a red passport, i feel fully entitled to welcome them into my country.

[roberto]

Originally Posted by Bluestar

It wasn't an answer to a question, it would be better if you read what i responded to.



not necessarily forced entry. After their visa could have run out and the Home Office haven't accepted their request to stay. These people have needs to, most of them contribute to the economy illegally if they have to. I don't like the fact you call them illegals.




umm no sorry. I've seen enough of generous british policy that exists on the face of it all. A personal account would be preferable.



not at all, most things can be broken down to simple situations. That is exactly what it's like, only the fact that it's a government and a lot more complicated and all the inferior citizens wouldn't understand; they have to make law after law, form after form, policy after policy to ensure anyone who is looking to seek residency in this country has to go through a nightmare to do it. If only Dickens was alive now, he'd see that his circumlocution office hasn't changed much.



well that's very convenient for you isn't it? I ask you to challenge the notions of borders and labelling people as legal and illegal and you ignore it altogether. Yet they're principles that should be thought of before even considering immigration.



I'm glad you think so



You shouldn't be so paranoid, i wasn't lmiting your choices or trying to "help" you, that was my way of looking at it and i was fully aware people may have additions or a completely different way of perceiving it

The phasing out of independent shops has been because of supermarkets in the past but i don't think that's the case anymore. I've found products in independent shops cheaper than i have in supermarkets and a lot of people in England want the personal touch. If people wanted to do it, they could and there's a high chance they woud succeed.



That's ok, there's plenty of room. Since i was born in 1985 and have a red passport, i feel fully entitled to welcome them into my country.

Your post is increasingly off the thread subject, it is extrtemely selective and repeatedly makes statements, which are at best distorted and at worst totally incorrect, you obviously are most unhappy with the situation, or rather the distortion of the situation, you perceive as being the UK’s policy towards immigrants and refugees.

It would not be difficult as, indeed I have, to go on refuting your allegations, however to do so would only feed your need to express your contempt and dislike of so much that has in fact made the UK one of the worlds most tolerant and generous nations to those seeking to find a better life in the West.

I have no idea why you bear so much resentment, is it that you have been slighted, or have failed to find a place in the country of your choice, what ever it is it’s your problem, not mine, I there withdraw from this exchange with you.

I am sure you will see this as confirmation of the correctness of your statements and my inability to challenge them, in respect of that, I feel sorry for you.

[Bluestar]

Hi roberto,

i'm not resentful, i'm currently living in england and i like it. My criticisms of immigration policies and practises come from meeting people who are going through the process and actually talking to them about it, rather than reading and believing the theoretical side of it. I suggest you do the same, it is very beneficial to know how the theory can be distorted when applied in a real life situation. We do have a high number of people who have emigrated, usually from countries that England has messed up in some time or another

ironic.

On the other hand, i'm glad that I was born and raised partly in England, it has a nice history which the English people should hold on to. I just don't agree with the methods that it takes sometimes and the lack of support it had during the intense immigration period in the mid 20th century. That probably is a consequence of a Tory government.

Thanks for your pity, though it has no value for me because i don't think you're chickening out, i just think that we have a different understanding of this part of history and the present government. However i am sorry that you couldn't answer my questions above, i think it would have made interesting discussion even if i am pressed for time to reply.

Ciao.