[Variable]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

He claimed that the Islamic ruling on a particular issue was "unmodern" without being able to articulate why modernity mattered and failed even to define what he meant by it. His incoherency as well as his use of self-propagating arguments is what makes his opinion irrelevant.

And prove to me why his opinion has value or that anyone's opinion has value while you're at it.

Maybe he was alluding to the 'modern' knowledge that preteen girls who undergo a childbirth have a much higher likelihood of loosing their baby, or their own lives because their bodies aren't ready to handle it.

Then again maybe he was just imaging what it would be like to give up his own 8 year-old girl to become the sexual partner of an adult male, and was making an arbitrary statement about it. In which case he'd still be as justified as anyone is to the contrary. Because every position on the matter is just that, arbitrary.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by Variable

Maybe he was alluding to the 'modern' knowledge that preteen girls who undergo a childbirth have a much higher likelihood of loosing their baby, or their own lives because their bodies aren't ready to handle it.

Then again maybe he was just imaging what it would be like to give up his own 8 year-old girl to become the sexual partner of an adult male, and was making an arbitrary statement about it. In which case he'd still be as justified as anyone is to the contrary. Because every position on the matter is just that, arbitrary.

So if morality is entirely subjective, then its irrelevant what his opinion is since its not morally superior to any other position.

[Jaysh]

Jinnz, can you please post in the "It Begins" thread in order to complete The J Trinity. Without you, me and Jam are just a gay duo coming stag to a party...but with you, we form the J TRINITY!!!

[Variable]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

So if morality is entirely subjective, then its irrelevant what his opinion is since its not morally superior to any other position.

Okay... but again, then it's as 'irrelevant' as any post here.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by Variable

Okay... but again, then it's as 'irrelevant' as any post here.

The posts of people that are Muslim discussing Islamic law are relevant because their is an essential connection between the object and the subject matter. A person who isn't Muslim, who is judging Islamic law without substantiating the ethical theory by which he critiques it, is not relevant to the discourse.

If you believe people from different thought systems have an inherent "right" to critique other thought systems, the burden of proof is on you to show me where such a right arises from in a manner that is neither Eurocentric nor hegemonic.

[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Eurocentric nor hegemonic.

JINNZAWORD!!!

[Skinwalker]

Originally Posted by Jaysh

What's wrong with a girl getting married at 15?

I was referring to the 8 year old girl being forced to marry in relation to what the law says. That's the atrocity.

[Skinwalker]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

The posts of people that are Muslim discussing Islamic law are relevant because their is an essential connection between the object and the subject matter. A person who isn't Muslim, who is judging Islamic law without substantiating the ethical theory by which he critiques it, is not relevant to the discourse.

If you believe people from different thought systems have an inherent "right" to critique other thought systems, the burden of proof is on you to show me where such a right arises from in a manner that is neither Eurocentric nor hegemonic.

You are wrong on every point you have accused me of. My use of the term modern and the morality of marrying off an 8 year old is case in point.

You obviously didn't read the statistics I quoted on how the age of marriage is practised in the 'modern' world. I wasn't referring to 'modern' as first world nations at all ... that's entirely your hang up ... I was referring to current laws and practices.

The marriageable age in Yemen is 15 not 8. So I was in complete agreement that this girl was abused.

My reference to the Bible was out of frustration with some Muslims here who feel they need to trash other people's beliefs by using vague references to support their own as superior. After all, I've seen enough people here get upset when non muslims take a verse out of the Quran out of context and say they've missed the meaning entirely. The same can be said when some take other peoples religious texts out of context as well.

A person who isn't Muslim, who is judging Islamic law without substantiating the ethical theory by which he critiques it, is not relevant to the discourse...Jinnzaman

By your very words then, not one single Muslim in these forums should be using Judeo Christian laws to support their negative arguments.


Nowhere in the Judeo Christian world is the marriage act set at puberty, nor is it practiced.

That's the entire point of my statement.

Oh and furthermore, Anyone who endorses having sex with children is a pedophile.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

The posts of people that are Muslim discussing Islamic law are relevant because their is an essential connection between the object and the subject matter. A person who isn't Muslim, who is judging Islamic law without substantiating the ethical theory by which he critiques it, is not relevant to the discourse.

It's relevant because we're all fellow human beings on planet Earth.

If you believe people from different thought systems have an inherent "right" to critique other thought systems, the burden of proof is on you to show me where such a right arises from in a manner that is neither Eurocentric nor hegemonic.

I don't think "rights" have anything to do with it at all. Here we are on Islamica, an open forum, kind of like the global free-market of ideas. Barring a few specific things, anyone is welcome to say whatever they want.

[Skinwalker]

Originally Posted by Jaysh

Age of Marriage amongst Native Americans

The practice of marrying girls at a young age was prevalent amongst Native American populations as well, as we read in an article entitled “Living Arrangements Among Native American Elders”:

Marriage was considered essential among all Navajos with polygamy, divorce, levirate and sorarate being practiced. Marriages were traditionally not based on romance but were arranged with the girls being married soon after puberty.

(Living Arrangements Among Native American Elders, http://www.pop.psu.edu/general/pubs/...pri/wp9605.pdf.)

We read further:

A Delaware Native American girl who reached puberty may have had her [marriage] union prearranged by her parents.

(WeddingDetails.com, Native American Traditions - WeddingDetails.com)

The first menstrual cycle was seen by the Native Americans as the coming of age, and after a ceremony, the young girl was ready for marriage:

This following are accounts for the coming of age rituals of first young women followed by that of the young men. The first occurred when the girl had her first menstrual cycle… When this celebration [i.e. the coming of age] was complete, joy of being accepted as a woman remained with the young girl as well as five vertical red and black stripes painted onto her cheek. These strips would be eventually removed and when the last of them was gone the young girl would be ready for marriage.

(Native Americans, Native American)

The Aztecs married their daughters off “well before the age of puberty”:

“Most [Aztec] girls were married (cohabiting) well before the age of puberty” (McCaa, 2003)[3]. Girls among the ancient Aztec (Nahua) married before age 15, and in many cases before 12 (McCaa, 1997; cf. 1996, 1994)[4]: “Children became adults upon marriage, and most children above the age of 10 years were married (or widowed, separated or abandoned)”. Females married very young, according to the narrative evidence from the Book of Tributes (Cline, 199331-2)[5]. Quantitative analysis of these data places the average for females below the age of thirteen

(Growing Up Sexually: A World Atlas, Ref)

The various South American tribes practiced early marriage, and this practice continued well into the 1500s. It is sometimes referred to as a “rearing marriage”, i.e. the husband raises his wife from childhood. We read:

Sumner (1906382) [29] cited reports that of child marriage where “girls of ten are mothers”[30]. Child betrothal is reported among the Guaraní of the Paraná River. “In some cases little girls were given to grown men, who lived with their child wives, probably in the house of their future parents-in-law” (Métraux, 1948)[31]. Child betrothal is also reported among the Cainguá, but the girls were said to remain with their parents, who receive presents from their prospective sons-in-law (ibid.)…

For the Samaraka, “[i]n the past, girls were formally betrothed (kiiá) well before puberty, and “betrothal in the womb” was an accepted practice, while today mean age at betrothal is only a year or two below age at marriage and child betrothal is unknown” (Price, 1975)[33]. Among the Warao, “[t]here were boys who were betrothed to little girls who had not yet reached puberty” (Heinen, [1988])[34]. Among the Brazilian Yanomamo, “[p]arents may also betroth their children while they are still infants” (Early & Peters, 1990)[35]. Among the Cuna, the premarital four-day debut ceremony is even sometimes given before puberty in the parents’ zeal to insure their daughter’s having it (Stout, 194734). As for the Asang, “[a] girl at a very early age, between eight and nine, is betrothed to a young man, who at once takes up residence in the house of her parents, whom he assists until […] [she] is old enough to be married, when, without ceremony, they are recognized as man and wife (Pim and Seeman, 1869306-7)[36]…

The Aikaná practiced betrothal in childhood, marriage took place after menarche (Becker-Donner, ?280)[38]. The same was formerly so in the Makurap (p290). The Bororo practised rearing marriage (Levak, 197377-8)[39].

(Growing Up Sexually: A World Atlas, Ref)

My response to this is the same to all the other historical and religious records brought up about it especially those written by white people interpreting our own history as .... One big yawn!

Their accounts are unreliable as they were mostly written to prove their own racial superiority over ours, especially as they considered the Native Americans to be childlike, I'm not surprised they would interpret things so, especially amongst cultures where a birth certificate didn't exist.

Here's a picture taken in 1854 of Paiute girls at Yosemite who were considered eligible for marriage. I don't see one 8 year old amongst them.



Oh and FYI.. since you obviously don't know, the average age for menarche (menstruation) for females before the 20th century was 17. The age of menarche occurring at 12 -13 years of age is a 'modern' phenomenon. It is getting younger by the year, and this is due entirely to improved nutrition and weight gain as well as chemicals in the environment. Many American Indians lived an unforgiving, mostly nomadic existence being mostly hunter gatherers. This was not conducive to early menarche. But of course you also realize that there are so many different tribes with their own customs. You forgot the Havasupai of Arizona, in your eurocentric quotes, where the mean age of marriage for females was 18 and males 24.

Oh and you also forgot to mention Pocahontas too.

How could you?

[AmroodWaala]

Originally Posted by Skinwalker

My response to this is the same to all the other historical and religious records brought up about it especially those written by white people interpreting our own history as .... One big yawn!

Their accounts are unreliable as they were mostly written to prove their own racial superiority over ours, especially as they considered the Native Americans to be childlike, I'm not surprised they would interpret things so, especially amongst cultures where a birth certificate didn't exist.

You forgot the Havasupai of Arizona, in your eurocentric quotes, where the mean age of marriage for females was 18 and males 24.
:

good point.


his eurocentric mentality got the best of him:

Muslims will come to this country aimed at mainstreaming themselves with regard to American privilege. [This] has sometimes meant, as with other immigrants, that they have assumed the mainstream ideology regarding rights and privileges. They have therefore imbibed some of the prejudices or the stereotypes with regard to oppressed peoples in this country. And instead of alleviating them, especially with Islam as the cause of their alleviation, they have perpetuated them.