[hijabihoodlum]

Originally Posted by Sugarberry

bottom line MSA is the not islamic police

precisely. nobody is calling for msa's to start organizing haraam activities. what we are asking is that msa's start being significantly more inclusive of muslims across the board. and yes, this implies lots of changes.

[hijabihoodlum]

Originally Posted by YOUSUFofSD

I agree but we can't just ignore it...we need to let them know that this is not acceptable Islamic behavior and certainly not plan gambling trips to Reno or whatever. That was craziness how they did that.

how do you propose we "let them know?" surely you agree that the best way to teach something is to practice it yourself (and that simply verbally telling someone to do something is ineffective). of course we all want what's best for each other, the problem comes in when we start treating our peers like idiots, getting up on our moral pedestals, and "teaching" them that which we "know."

[Salika]

Originally Posted by farah

salika, i understand your point of view, but i guess i have some issues with it (let it be known now that i've been thinking about this a lot lately and haven't formulated a final thought on the situation in my head yet)

Definitely valid questions.

I guess what I have in mind are two types of scenarios.

A. The newcomer/visitor who is out of the loop when it comes to Islam and the MSA at large.

B. Those who coming to the MSA or are already in the MSA not to change themselves, but to change Islam and the MSA

... these two people are very different as they come to the MSA with different intentions in mind. Now that being said...

- where do we draw the line? if we're talking about dressing modestly, who's defining that? if we're talking about respecting the values of msa, what are those values? what if there's a guy who doesn't want to pray when everyone prays in jamaat? the principle's that we're setting down to be followed, if only in an msa settings, are ultimately always going to be the most outward ones, so where do we draw the line on people's outward behavior?

With respect to my A scenario, there really isn't a line to be drawn. This person is sincerely coming to learn about Islam (even if they are not considering conversion) and if they show up half drunk in a bikini, they should be given the same benefit of the doubt (erm, maybe we can let the alcohol wear off :P )

My experience with these well meaning people though and it's only my experience, is that over time they usually pick it up the values and really try to respect them, often without being told. When they are told politely (if need be), they are pretty receptive and understanding. So with those sincere hearted people, we should work with them.

If someone does not want to pray, fine, but that's different then the type B scenario I have up top of the person who essentially has their own views of what Islam should be. Let A not pray, but someone, like B, if they want to tell everyone that prayer is not necessary and try to block off people from praying or try to organize some alternative prayer event, then that's where the person should be asked to leave.

- who's judging? the biggest problem i have with setting down limitations of which kind of muslims/people are allowed in an organization is that you have this group of (often uneducated) muslims getting together, tossing around their ideals of islam and putting value judgments on other people. everyone wholeheartedly believes what they're doing is right, is the best for the Ummah and the best for the organization... even if their thoughts collide 100% with someone else's.

I don't think there is anything to judge. While there is lots of gray in Islam, there is also a lot of clarify. Gambling trips are unacceptable, I think we all know that. Even if there are certain "types" of people, everyone in the MSA, particularly the eboard and event organizers, need to come to a compromise. Not everyone needs to express every aspect of their views through the MSA. If you're gambling kind of Muslim, then gamble somewhere else. I'm sure there are lots of things that all Muslims can agree on or find some happy medium on. They can organize social activities that are more acceptable, like hiking.

I think the bottom line though comes back down to respect. Regardless of where a Muslim falls in the conservative-liberal spectrum, respect those around you and find something else that's palatable for everyone.

- i feel that the people (especially the muslims) who are uneducated/ignorant/turned away from islam, YET ARE STILL COMING TO THE MUSLIM STUDENT ASSOCIATION, are the ones who seek to gain the most from being surrounded by muslims. often, it seems like they take their first few steps and are told "well, you have to completely change your behavior to be let into this organization," and are discouraged from attending further sessions. simply making muslim friends and surrounding yourself with other muslims (or, most importantly, in my opinion, even just seeing good come from other muslims who are opening, welcome and treat you with the utmost adab) attracts people to this deen like no other.

Well ya, type A is going to return should be encouraged to come. Type B often has no intention of improving themselves.

In my personal experience with the MSA, most people I met were more like type A. First they come in tight fitting clothes, but they start to catch on and slowly you see some changes in them and that's great.

There was one lady who came to our MSA for awhile, she was the "progressive Muslim" type. Her clothes were not an issue, whatever, she wores jeans and sweatshirts. She always wanted to express her views and argue with everyone around her about her hijab was not fard and that sort of thing. Frankly, she was antagonistic, which nobody likes no matter what the issue is. Everyone was pretty nice to her but nobody really budged towards her views so she stopped coming.

why do the mini-skirt wearing girl and pot-smoking guy come to msa? when i started college myself, i was honestly pretty ignorant of soooo many aspects of islam. alhumdulillah, i was surrounded by muslims who understood my weaknesses and dealt with me with the utmost kindness. and honestly, looking back at my life in general and my msa experiences in particular, i'm absolutely amazed and utterly grateful beyond belief with the people Allah swt surrounded me with... because i can't even imagine the kind of person i'd be without them.

Because you're a type A Again, it goes back to my points of intention and respecting those around you. Most sincere people understand that when they come to the MSA, they are like guests, or if more involved, role models on some level or another. Just like a guest in someone's home respects the host and the role model is aware of how those view them, so too does the type A and these people with sincere hearts respect those around them.

My biggest contention is when the MSA itself, through its leaders, start to change the MSA into something that's not Islamic at all such as organizing trips to the slots. This is obviously a bigger (and different) issue than including newcomers who are not so aware. It's changing the organization to something that's simply not recognizable by its founders and previous leaders, which ANY organization would have problems with.

(Disclaimer: Please no one get on my back about the A and B classifications. I realize the world is more complex than this, but it's something I used to make myself more clear).

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by Salika

Definitely valid questions.

I guess what I have in mind are two types of scenarios.

A. The newcomer/visitor who is out of the loop when it comes to Islam and the MSA at large.

B. Those who coming to the MSA or are already in the MSA not to change themselves, but to change Islam and the MSA

... these two people are very different as they come to the MSA with different intentions in mind. Now that being said...


With respect to my A scenario, there really isn't a line to be drawn. This person is sincerely coming to learn about Islam (even if they are not considering conversion) and if they show up half drunk in a bikini, they should be given the same benefit of the doubt (erm, maybe we can let the alcohol wear off :P )

My experience with these well meaning people though and it's only my experience, is that over time they usually pick it up the values and really try to respect them, often without being told. When they are told politely (if need be), they are pretty receptive and understanding. So with those sincere hearted people, we should work with them.

If someone does not want to pray, fine, but that's different then the type B scenario I have up top of the person who essentially has their own views of what Islam should be. Let A not pray, but someone, like B, if they want to tell everyone that prayer is not necessary and try to block off people from praying or try to organize some alternative prayer event, then that's where the person should be asked to leave.


I don't think there is anything to judge. While there is lots of gray in Islam, there is also a lot of clarify. Gambling trips are unacceptable, I think we all know that. Even if there are certain "types" of people, everyone in the MSA, particularly the eboard and event organizers, need to come to a compromise. Not everyone needs to express every aspect of their views through the MSA. If you're gambling kind of Muslim, then gamble somewhere else. I'm sure there are lots of things that all Muslims can agree on or find some happy medium on. They can organize social activities that are more acceptable, like hiking.

I think the bottom line though comes back down to respect. Regardless of where a Muslim falls in the conservative-liberal spectrum, respect those around you and find something else that's palatable for everyone.


Well ya, type A is going to return should be encouraged to come. Type B often has no intention of improving themselves.

In my personal experience with the MSA, most people I met were more like type A. First they come in tight fitting clothes, but they start to catch on and slowly you see some changes in them and that's great.

There was one lady who came to our MSA for awhile, she was the "progressive Muslim" type. Her clothes were not an issue, whatever, she wores jeans and sweatshirts. She always wanted to express her views and argue with everyone around her about her hijab was not fard and that sort of thing. Frankly, she was antagonistic, which nobody likes no matter what the issue is. Everyone was pretty nice to her but nobody really budged towards her views so she stopped coming.



Because you're a type A Again, it goes back to my points of intention and respecting those around you. Most sincere people understand that when they come to the MSA, they are like guests, or if more involved, role models on some level or another. Just like a guest in someone's home respects the host and the role model is aware of how those view them, so too does the type A and these people with sincere hearts respect those around them.

My biggest contention is when the MSA itself, through its leaders, start to change the MSA into something that's not Islamic at all such as organizing trips to the slots. This is obviously a bigger (and different) issue than including newcomers who are not so aware. It's changing the organization to something that's simply not recognizable by its founders and previous leaders, which ANY organization would have problems with.

(Disclaimer: Please no one get on my back about the A and B classifications. I realize the world is more complex than this, but it's something I used to make myself more clear).

you're paying too much attention to the gambling trips

thats a very rare and isolated case, its a non-issue compare to the bigger issue of inclusion

[PhDGirl]

Originally Posted by hijabihoodlum

how do you propose we "let them know?" surely you agree that the best way to teach something is to practice it yourself (and that simply verbally telling someone to do something is ineffective). of course we all want what's best for each other, the problem comes in when we start treating our peers like idiots, getting up on our moral pedestals, and "teaching" them that which we "know."

Exactly - there's no purpose in trying to categorize others and decide what their intentions are and/or if they are "worthy" to attend the MSA.

[Salika]

Originally Posted by PhDGirl

Exactly - there's no purpose in trying to categorize others and decide what their intentions are and/or if they are "worthy" to attend the MSA.

With all due respect, just like you don't want to "categorize" people and decide their intentions, then there is no need to decide others' intentions as well.

It really has nothing to do with with anyone deeming anyone to be "worthy" or otherwise. It's about the purpose of the MSA and how to achieve that purpose in a manner that is most efficient with the least amount of headaches. Most groups operate like this-- that's why they have mission statements and the like.

[PhDGirl]

Originally Posted by Salika

With all due respect, just like you don't want to "categorize" people and decide their intentions, then there is no need to decide others' intentions as well.

It really has nothing to do with with anyone deeming anyone to be "worthy" or otherwise. It's about the purpose of the MSA and how to achieve that purpose in a manner that is most efficient with the least amount of headaches. Most groups operate like this-- that's why they have mission statements and the like.

Okay, so since you seem to take issue with my post, if you were not categorizing people in your "Type A" vs "Type B" post then what were you doing? You made statements like "this person is sincere" as though you know their intentions and in an earlier post in this thread equated people who don't dress modestly (however you define it - not clear on what that is) to someone wearing a swastika shirt to a Jewish group event as though it was the same thing. If the goal is the least amount of headaches, then you're right, not being as inclusive does eliminate them because it takes out room for debate and discussion. The problem with the whole line of thinking is that it holds some people as the "judgers" as though they have some authority.

[Salika]

Originally Posted by PhDGirl

Okay, so since you seem to take issue with my post, if you were not categorizing people in your "Type A" vs "Type B" post then what were you doing? You made statements like "this person is sincere" as though you know their intentions and in an earlier post in this thread equated people who don't dress modestly (however you define it - not clear on what that is) to someone wearing a swastika shirt to a Jewish group event as though it was the same thing. If the goal is the least amount of headaches, then you're right, not being as inclusive does eliminate them because it takes out room for debate and discussion. The problem with the whole line of thinking is that it holds some people as the "judgers" as though they have some authority.

No, my issue was with you assuming that people want to decide who is worthy for the MSA or not when they have a different intention even though you seem to have a problem with deciding people's intentions.

All I was trying to make clear is that some people come to the MSA to cause problems. That's my point with the swastikas, that they come to cause problems, be it swastikas or dandelions. I'm not equating people who dress immodestly to racists, I'm equating people who want to cause problems to people who want to cause problems, irrespective of their actions. (And no, I'm not saying that all people who dress immodestly are troublemakers, it's an example, just an example, which was brought up before)

I see no need to include them, frankly. All other organizations deal with people who are problematic. Why should the MSA bend backwards to include people who causing the organization problems? In a student government for example, if a senator or executive only wants to organize events with petting zoos and carnivals and thus act outside of the purpose, there is no discussion of inclusion or whether they're a good person deep down inside, they get impeached.

Forget mini-skirts, that's just an example (which is not that big of a deal, I only used it because others brought it up), but there's a whole host of things that people do to cause problems.

Yes, I caterogized people because not everyone is the same.

I mean I'm looking at this discussin and in all honesty a little bit puzzled. On the one hand, you have people who are like "let's not get caught up in outward appearances, it's what's on the inside that counts" then you talk about the inside and you get "no, we can't judge people, we dont know what their intentions are."

Then what? What is the standard? We all make judgment calls every day about people, we have to even in order to get things done. When you choose study partners, you judge, when you hire someone, you judge, when you make a friend, you judge, we judge people every. single. day. Why? No, not because we think we are better than everyone else or we are sitting on some pedestal. Because we have a purpose in choosing that study partner or hiring that person or making company of this friend. Same with the MSA, it has a purpose and there are people trying to learn and benefit and the line is drawn when a trouble maker comes to cause problems in whatever way that is. Because no one wants penalize the uninformed, and rightfully so, you have to make an educated judgment call on what a person intends and often, it's pretty clear.

Bottom line: Yes, we should include everyone and give people the benefit of the doubt, but not at the expense of the MSA.

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by Salika

All I was trying to make clear is that some people come to the MSA to cause problems.

so you also include angry salafis, hizb ut tahrir and proselytizing tableeghis in that category, yea?

and those people are most religious in their appearance than religion itself

[Salika]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

so you also include angry salafis, hizb ut tahrir and proselytizing tableeghis in that category, yea?

and those people are most religious in their appearance than religion itself

Ya, I would include them.

I'm not really concerned with appearances though... as I said in my post above "Forget miniskirts..." I just initially used appearances because that's the example that other people were using.

[ChotooMotoo]

I think everyone should be included, but it's also perfectly fair for MSA's to have a set of ground rules as to what is, and what is not appropriate in the MSA setting. Appropriateness should extend beyond appearance as well. For instance, is it really appropriate for MSA's to stage anti-Israel rally's? Is it appropriate for MSA's to talk with political candidates, or endorse political candidates? I think the answer to both of those questions is no. As for dress, I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask that ladies AND men wear non-offensive slogans/pictures on T-Shirts, and that ladies AND men should be covered from neck to elbow, to ankle. That eliminates cleavage problems, and seeing guys hairy legs. I think the rules should be a little lax, simple to avoid imposing one persons view/culture on another person. MSA's do exist in a very multi-cultural environment. Things that really are obviously against Islam, gambling, singleton dating, kissing, of course those thing shouldn't be organized by the MSA. Now, what individual MSA members do on their own time is their own business, but the MSA shouldn't shouldn't organize these events as a club.

Also, many MSA's have to be affiliated with Universities, and University guidelines for clubs must be followed. When MSA's pay attention to that, you'll see that they have to relax their rules about allowing non-Muslims to MSA meetings and events, and having women on the board. If they aren't following University guidelines, they can't affiliate themselves with the University.

At my last MSA, we had to totally re-write our contitution and by laws to conform to University rules. We had such rules as, the MSA will be under the Masjid board. That is in direct violation with the University rules. The old constituion had things like, non Non-Muslims allowed to be members, no women to serve on the board, all events to be sanctioned by the Masjid board etc. All of those things had to be thrown out if we wanted to be affiliated with the University, which we did becuase it gave us many more advantages than we had under the Masjid board. One of those being money, another being availability of locations, being able to reserve University property for Eid parties and Eid prayer etc. These are all things you have to keep in mind.

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

At my last MSA, we had to totally re-write our contitution and by laws to conform to University rules. We had such rules as, the MSA will be under the Masjid board. That is in direct violation with the University rules. The old constituion had things like, non Non-Muslims allowed to be members, no women to serve on the board, all events to be sanctioned by the Masjid board etc. All of those things had to be thrown out if we wanted to be affiliated with the University, which we did becuase it gave us many more advantages than we had under the Masjid board. One of those being money, another being availability of locations, being able to reserve University property for Eid parties and Eid prayer etc. These are all things you have to keep in mind.

man, what the hell kinda MSA were you a part of

i understand not letting women be on the board because women are haram and all, but whats up with being under the masjid board