[MossadConspiracy]

more stuff you can compare to inappropriate clothes:

injecting heroin and needle-sharing
knife fights
live unprotected gay sex
setting things on fire
group suicide
dog fighting
open-air porn screenings

if you're gonna do that in the MSA, just dont call it MSA ok?

[Variable]

I haven't seen a girl wearing a mini skirt in ages interesting to hear they come out of the wood work to go to an MSA meeting.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by Sugarberry

ok slot machines aside i understand what your saying....I primarily focused on the clothes aspect. slot machines, ladies night at luna lounge shouldn't be an msa sponsered trip duh ...and the people who advocate for such things should be nicely informed that this isnt islamic and take their buiness elsewhere

my concern is the MSA telling people how to dress, most muslims have different concepts of what they consider islamic dress. Its not unheard of for a concerend muslim brother to tell a another muslim brother " dude this is a serious MSA ....and since your not bearded...maybe you should join another club" or for a sister to give "helpful" advice to another sister " sister ummm....your sandals are attracting attention ....maybe you could wear socks next time you come to the MSA" " you have soo much makeup on....when you pray its not good to wear that much....and its bothering the MSA brothers"

can you not see how retarded behavior like that would turn someone who is sincerely intrested in reconnecting with Islam and muslims, off and scare from ever coming back to the MSA

bottom line MSA is the not islamic police....I dont think they have the right to tell others how to dress.

I agree with you that the MSA should be open to allow people of all backgrounds and hues to come along and see what the MSA is all about. I'm also certainly not advocating that if a girl wearing a mini-skirt comes along for the first time, because she's interested in Islam, or just wants to chill with Muslims, or just to see what it's all about, that she should be accosted at the front door by some burly bearded brother, telling her "you, are dressed like a bleepity bleep, and you will burn in hell unless you cover yourself with a burkha", so I agree with you on that front. Also, if someone smokes weed, or drinks alcohol or gambles, that they should be singled out and given a dressing-down.

But at the same time, it doesn't seem fair to all the other Muslims, to allow the Islamic environment to be disrupted just so that we can be all-inclusive. There has to be a balance and a common-sense approach.

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

more stuff you can compare to inappropriate clothes:

injecting heroin and needle-sharing
knife fights
live unprotected gay sex
setting things on fire
group suicide
dog fighting
open-air porn screenings

man, you got a effed up mind

[Laimuun]

a (niqabi) sister at my msa told the jilbab wearing sisters that they shouldn't wear jeans underneath their abayas, because when muslim guys see the whole jeans-peeking-out-from-under-the-abaya look, they find it hot.

I wonder what she thought of us non abaya wearers.

[Sugarberry]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

But at the same time, it doesn't seem fair to all the other Muslims, to allow the Islamic environment to be disrupted just so that we can be all-inclusive. There has to be a balance and a common-sense approach.

I agree a balance is good.....but so few MSA's know how to balance.

Originally Posted by Laimuun

a (niqabi) sister at my msa told the jilbab wearing sisters that they shouldn't wear jeans underneath their abayas, because when muslim guys see the whole jeans-peeking-out-from-under-the-abaya look, they find it hot.

I wonder what she thought of us non abaya wearers.

hahahahah man thats messed up!

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by Laimuun

I wonder what she thought of us non abaya wearers.

oh you know you're going to hell

[PhDGirl]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

you guys have to understand that MSA activities are not just a place to make friends, have fun, and learn, but also a place to act out authoritarian fantasies

Haha - seriously. It's like some of these people don't fit in anywhere else, so they try to exert whatever authority they have in the MSA.

Originally Posted by Laimuun

a (niqabi) sister at my msa told the jilbab wearing sisters that they shouldn't wear jeans underneath their abayas, because when muslim guys see the whole jeans-peeking-out-from-under-the-abaya look, they find it hot.

I wonder what she thought of us non abaya wearers.

That's funny - I can totally see that. It's behaviors like that which turn people away from the MSA, which is sad because that's often the only place on campus to meet other Muslims. I noticed that many of the comments here focused on the girl's miniskirt and how dare she approach the MSA wearing such a thing, but nobody has mentioned the hypocrisy of the brother lecturing her who smoked weed. Obviously I'm not advocating smoking pot, but it's interesting how attire is such a hot button. I don't think you can compare someone who's interested in Islam and meeting Muslims who is wearing American clothes to someone wearing a blatantly racist shirt - it's not at all the same thing.

There are a lot of people who have different perspectives on practice, so by not being welcoming, part of the population is shut out, which makes it difficult to advocate for changes on campus (ie, having halal food, changing around meal credits during Ramadan, shoring up the numbers to get funding and speakers etc). People act so smug and superior around outwardly-visible things such as attire when perhaps they could focus their energies on things that are more productive. Obviously I'm not advocating organizing things such as gambling parties, but there's no reason to be so rigid that you cut off a large segment of Muslims and aren't welcoming to people who might be interested in Islam.

[m_ali_qazi]

here's a solution

every campus should have two branches in the MSA

- one that completely includes all muslims of any kind and is also open to non-muslims and has open discussion on all socio-political issues concerning muslims.

- second should be a halaqa and should be very strict in terms of obeservance of haram/halal, requires head covering and full clothing, and tries to imitate the traditional halaqa as much as possible(sitting on floors etc) and should not be like one of those "cookie halaqas."

[farah]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

here's a solution

every campus should have two branches in the MSA

- one that completely includes all muslims of any kind and is also open to non-muslims and has open discussion on all socio-political issues concerning muslims.

- second should be a halaqa and should be very strict in terms of obeservance of haram/halal, requires head covering and full clothing, and tries to imitate the traditional halaqa as much as possible(sitting on floors etc) and should not be like one of those "cookie halaqas."

omg that would be amazing

[Salika]

No, but the reason I personally would have a problem with someone showing up in a mini-skirt (intentionally) is NOT merely because of the outward appearance. That thinking is going to lead to the same only-focusing-on-outward-appearance mentality trap.

It's not the clothing, per se, but rather the intention. That's why it DOES make a difference whether the person was ignorant or not. If the person is well aware that x clothing (or behavior, it's really not just about clothing) is disprespectful, then it's not a matter of clothing, but respect and lack thereof. This is why racist t-shirts can be comparable, because, again, it's not merely the clothing, but the intent of the person.

I mean I hope it's obvious that if a person is unaware that a mini-skirt or beer bottle or weed or whatever is disrespectful witnin the MSA circles, they should not be penalized. These things are common on college campus and a person is not expected to magically know. This is why every MSA member, when seeing such a person for the first time, should assume the person is unaware (even if they are from a Muslim background). However, if that person continuously disrespects MSA's policies, then that person should (politely) be told that the MSA is not their type of organization.

Then there is the second (and separate issue) of allowing for varying types of activities that are frankly, un-Islamic. I mean look, every organization has a purpose, goals, and a means to reach those goals. If all organizations thought the same thing every thing and were inclusive all groups of people no matter what, then there would be no point in having different organizations with different names. We can just have one big student organization where every one did what he/she pleases.

[Salahadeen]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

here's a solution

every campus should have two branches in the MSA

- one that completely includes all muslims of any kind and is also open to non-muslims and has open discussion on all socio-political issues concerning muslims.

- second should be a halaqa and should be very strict in terms of obeservance of haram/halal, requires head covering and full clothing, and tries to imitate the traditional halaqa as much as possible(sitting on floors etc) and should not be like one of those "cookie halaqas."

I wonder which of the two all the hot girls would go to...

[Salika]

Originally Posted by Salahadeen

I wonder which of the two all the hot girls would go to...

umm... speaking of Islamic values and mini-skirts...

[farah]

Originally Posted by Salika

No, but the reason I personally would have a problem with someone showing up in a mini-skirt (intentionally) is NOT merely because of the outward appearance. That thinking is going to lead to the same only-focusing-on-outward-appearance mentality trap.

It's not the clothing, per se, but rather the intention. That's why it DOES make a difference whether the person was ignorant or not. If the person is well aware that x clothing (or behavior, it's really not just about clothing) is disprespectful, then it's not a matter of clothing, but respect and lack thereof. This is why racist t-shirts can be comparable, because, again, it's not merely the clothing, but the intent of the person.

I mean I hope it's obvious that if a person is unaware that a mini-skirt or beer bottle or weed or whatever is disrespectful witnin the MSA circles, they should not be penalized. These things are common on college campus and a person is not expected to magically know. This is why every MSA member, when seeing such a person for the first time, should assume the person is unaware (even if they are from a Muslim background). However, if that person continuously disrespects MSA's policies, then that person should (politely) be told that the MSA is not their type of organization.

salika, i understand your point of view, but i guess i have some issues with it (let it be known now that i've been thinking about this a lot lately and haven't formulated a final thought on the situation in my head yet)

- where do we draw the line? if we're talking about dressing modestly, who's defining that? if we're talking about respecting the values of msa, what are those values? what if there's a guy who doesn't want to pray when everyone prays in jamaat? the principle's that we're setting down to be followed, if only in an msa settings, are ultimately always going to be the most outward ones, so where do we draw the line on people's outward behavior?

- who's judging? the biggest problem i have with setting down limitations of which kind of muslims/people are allowed in an organization is that you have this group of (often uneducated) muslims getting together, tossing around their ideals of islam and putting value judgments on other people. everyone wholeheartedly believes what they're doing is right, is the best for the Ummah and the best for the organization... even if their thoughts collide 100% with someone else's.

- i feel that the people (especially the muslims) who are uneducated/ignorant/turned away from islam, YET ARE STILL COMING TO THE MUSLIM STUDENT ASSOCIATION, are the ones who seek to gain the most from being surrounded by muslims. often, it seems like they take their first few steps and are told "well, you have to completely change your behavior to be let into this organization," and are discouraged from attending further sessions. simply making muslim friends and surrounding yourself with other muslims (or, most importantly, in my opinion, even just seeing good come from other muslims who are opening, welcome and treat you with the utmost adab) attracts people to this deen like no other.

why do the mini-skirt wearing girl and pot-smoking guy come to msa? when i started college myself, i was honestly pretty ignorant of soooo many aspects of islam. alhumdulillah, i was surrounded by muslims who understood my weaknesses and dealt with me with the utmost kindness. and honestly, looking back at my life in general and my msa experiences in particular, i'm absolutely amazed and utterly grateful beyond belief with the people Allah swt surrounded me with... because i can't even imagine the kind of person i'd be without them.