[Variable]

Originally Posted by Shahnawaz

Americans are there to provide security to their lapdogs and no one else, i.e. the ones that perpetuate the lie that America is here to help. If they were'nt there these sorry excuses for leaders would be desposed of immediatly. If they leave the Muslims will find an Amir for themselves as they've done through out their 1400 year history. Its an utterly laughable yet detestable idea that America is the only reason the world isn't killing eachother.

I don't know if you're addressing that to me, but I'm certainly not suggesting that "the Americans are the only reason the world isn't killing each other". Right now they are the only reason it seems that certain portions of Baghdad aren't killing each other. One of the places where security increased with increased troop presence.

[MuslimZ]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

It's patronizing to insist that the Iraqis need us there, otherwise they will implode and start eating each others entrails.

It's not patronizing; it's harsh reality. Are there Iraqis capable of taking over the reigns and leading the country back to independence and stability? Most definitely. Are they in power now? Hell no. Until new leadership is put into power; Iraq is a ticking bomb that will implode. No amount of money you could throw at it would eliminate that threat.

That doesn't mean we embrace the status quo. It is the duty of the Iraqi people and occupying forces to establish legitimate, sincere, and uncorrupted government before we call for the withdrawal of military forces. Right now police forces are a joke, leadership is a circus, and inter-cooperation amongst Iraqis is a stand up act.

[Shahnawaz]

Thats quite a silly thing to say, seeing as though the occupation is the very reason there hasn't been any progress in the way of establishing "sincere, and uncorrupted government", because if there was to be one then it wouldn't accomadate the US agenda of sucking the country dry, aswell as acting as satalite over other "rougue" nations.

So, in short, your solution is the problem.

[Anderson]

Originally Posted by Variable

I don't know if you're addressing that to me, but I'm certainly not suggesting that "the Americans are the only reason the world isn't killing each other". Right now they are the only reason it seems that certain portions of Baghdad aren't killing each other. One of the places where security increased with increased troop presence.

That's complete bs, they were the reason 'portions of Baghdad' were killing each other in the first place. What arrogance that a country can destroy another to exploit its natural resources and then claim that only their presence will put the country back together again.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Shahnawaz

You, missy, are a joke.
"Maintaining tribal violence" (which doesn't require "your Boys") is not an excuse for occupation.
Funny how you make so many excuses for the US occupation, yet this is not extended to the believers.

Trait of Nifaq, that is. Harsh with the beleivers and humble and reconciling with the disbeleivers.

You know, I asked a very simple question that had nothing to do with the occupation. If you had any brains and reading comprehension skill, you would know that I am very against the Iraq war, and was from the start. Instead of answering my question, you declare that I must be kaffir. You're the joke, not me.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Anderson

That's complete bs, they were the reason 'portions of Baghdad' were killing each other in the first place. What arrogance that a country can destroy another to exploit its natural resources and then claim that only their presence will put the country back together again.

I am violating my no-posting-on-Islamica-because-it-is-99%-idiots rule to express my love for Anderson

[shadha]

MuslimZ: It's not patronizing; it's harsh reality. Are there Iraqis capable of taking over the reigns and leading the country back to independence and stability? Most definitely. Are they in power now? Hell no. Until new leadership is put into power; Iraq is a ticking bomb that will implode. No amount of money you could throw at it would eliminate that threat.
That doesn't mean we embrace the status quo. It is the duty of the Iraqi people and occupying forces to establish legitimate, sincere, and uncorrupted government before we call for the withdrawal of military forces. Right now police forces are a joke, leadership is a circus, and inter-cooperation amongst Iraqis is a stand up act.


I absolutely agree.

All hell will break loose if the occupying forces up and leave Iraq too early. Just consider the situation of the country today, now picture if all the occupying forces left by tonight- what will happen to Iraq? What government is there? What military? There will be absolutely no law and order, and that, is extremely dangerous for Iraq and the world. Unfortunately, the occupying countries have no choice but to remain in Iraq until a stable government is instilled.


shadha-

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by shadha

Unfortunately, the occupying countries have no choice but to remain in Iraq until a stable government is instilled.


shadha-

The question then becomes one of a) how interested are the occupying forces in stabilizing the country b) how willing are Iraqi's to comply with any government instilled while occupying forces remain c) how willing are Iraqi's to put aside their ethnic/tribal/sectarian/religious differences to form a unity government independent of occupying forces d) how willing are Iraqis to keep a unity government in tact once occupying forces leave (ie not devolve into civil war as they are right now)

None of those are easy questions. As of right now, the answer to each of these questions is "not very interested" which is why the country is in a state of civil war.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Anderson

That's complete bs, they were the reason 'portions of Baghdad' were killing each other in the first place. What arrogance that a country can destroy another to exploit its natural resources and then claim that only their presence will put the country back together again.

Why don't you tell me how it really is then? Please tell me how things would look if the US jumped ship tomorrow. Are you saying that different groups weren't killing each other in the city? And that this violence didn't decrease as the surge took effect? That's not a vague theory on my part, it was what was happening.

If you think that it's lost on me that the US is responsible for all of this, I assure you you're wrong. But we could sit here all day and talk about who's fault it is, and there would still be various groups in Baghdad waiting for their next chance to hurt people.

[revivalist786]

this sentiment of not wanting america on muslim soil is shared by majority if not all muslims..

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by MuslimZ

It's not patronizing; it's harsh reality. Are there Iraqis capable of taking over the reigns and leading the country back to independence and stability? Most definitely. Are they in power now? Hell no. Until new leadership is put into power; Iraq is a ticking bomb that will implode. No amount of money you could throw at it would eliminate that threat.

That doesn't mean we embrace the status quo. It is the duty of the Iraqi people and occupying forces to establish legitimate, sincere, and uncorrupted government before we call for the withdrawal of military forces. Right now police forces are a joke, leadership is a circus, and inter-cooperation amongst Iraqis is a stand up act.

"You Iraqis, eh? We can't take you anywhere. You always make a mess, you can't even run your own country without our help. If it wasn't for us, you'd be ripping each other to shreds." That sounds pretty patronizing to me.

The money I suggested is to help rebuild the country, and for reparations. If you break it, you pay for it. That should be the rule. The Americans went and blew the whole country apart. Remember Dumsfeld bragging about "shock and awe", or has it faded from the collective American memory?

The police force is a joke, because of the Americans. Who is training them? Who is overseeing them?

The leadership is a circus, because of the Americans. They marginalise and try to kill anyone who is popular, and they try and put forward, and prop up losers that no one has heard of, and no one wants there.

Inter-cooperation amongst Iraqis is a stand up act, because of the Americans. They are the ones that stirred up sectarianism, pitting one group against the other.

The Americans need to get out of Iraq... now.

[shadha]

Jam, what do you think will happen when America leaves? Let's say that they pick up and leave tomorrow morning, what will become of Iraq by dusk?


shadha-

[zzze]

asslamau alaykum

it's really none of america's buisness, since when could they take the moral highground on anything? Go ahead and bust open guantanamo bay and liberate them. Death is better than what they go through.

The Americans wouldn't be there if they couldn't benefit in some way. Ugh I HATE these tyrants.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

The police force is a joke, because of the Americans. Who is training them? Who is overseeing them?

A tough task considering there are people with a vested interest in making not work, are free to infiltrate the police forces at their leisure.

The leadership is a circus, because of the Americans. They marginalise and try to kill anyone who is popular

Like who?

I agree though, the Americans are pretty hypocritical when it comes to how they measure out support for gov'ts.

Inter-cooperation amongst Iraqis is a stand up act, because of the Americans. They are the ones that stirred up sectarianism, pitting one group against the other.

I find that very unlikely. Just from the Shia threads here that rage on forever, slandering one side or the other. The Americans didn't create violent tensions between the two groups. It was a characteristic of Saddam's rule. He kept a lid on it though through brutal oppression.

The Americans need to get out of Iraq... now.

You still haven't answered how things would look if they did that. It would be good for the US probably, they wouldn't be losing the money as they are now, not to mention any more American lives. But do you really think that everyone in mixed areas of Iraq would let bygones be bygones and usher in a new era of peace and stability? And if so, how?

[Jamroll]

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