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Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

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View Poll Results: I think her punishment should be:
6 months in prison 3 6.67%
40 lashes 2 4.44%
A fine 0 0%
Nothing 40 88.89%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

it's not an unfamiliar situation for any country, didn't we just have a person in America who was to face the death penalty until the officials found the real person who committed the crime? How many people in demonstrations have had their heads kicked in by protective police?

Injustice doesn't come from one part of the world, it comes from stupid people.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2007, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

[quote=Bluestar;44846]
Quote:
it's not an unfamiliar situation for any country, didn't we just have a person in America who was to face the death penalty until the officials found the real person who committed the crime?
I think this compares apples wirth oranges



Quote:
How many people in demonstrations have had their heads kicked in by protective police?
Lots I should imagine,but these are illegal action and not compariable with legal systems of so called justice

Quote:
Injustice doesn't come from one part of the world, it comes from stupid people
Are you really claiming that all countries and systems have the same degree of injustices?
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

I voted 40 lashes but I'd give them to the child who picked the name.
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Old 11-28-2007, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto View Post

I think this compares apples wirth oranges
i know but my point was they're still fruit. The East and the West have a lot in common.


Quote:
Lots I should imagine,but these are illegal action and not compariable with legal systems of so called justice
It doesn't matter whether they're illegal or legal, they immoral and they still happen.

Quote:
Are you really claiming that all countries and systems have the same degree of injustices?
Of course not But who's to say that it's worse than starving thousands of people as a result of their country being the victim of sanctions so the main product that's exported from their country can't be sold at all? Or that it's worse than the Israeli army who think it's funny to tear gas a baby and bomb a persons house when they suspect one person in the house and they know there's over 5 other children in there. I'm just saying the injustice doesn't depend on geography, it depends on the stupidity of people.
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

[quote=Bluestar;45161]




Quote:
It doesn't matter whether they're illegal or legal, they immoral and they still happen.
I was trying to distinguish between actions by individuals who are not representative of the majority or of government policy

Quote:
Of course not But who's to say that it's worse than starving thousands of people as a result of their country being the victim of sanctions so the main product that's exported from their country can't be sold at all?
,Sanctions are a crude weapon which I do not favour, but if you are thinking of Iraq you should take a look at the differences between the North where food distribution was not in the hands of the Saddam regime and that in the South where it was


Quote:
Or that it's worse than the Israeli army who think it's funny to tear gas a baby and bomb a persons house when they suspect one person in the house and they know there's over 5 other children in there.
I doubt if they find it funny, they are fighting an enemy who does not wear uniforms and who operate in populated areas, having said that I do considered that action by the Israeli army is frequently disproportionate. I also find the situation so confusing, so steeped in years, if not, centuries of hate, that I would hesitate to judge the over-all situation


Quote:
I'm just saying the injustice doesn't depend on geography, it depends on the stupidity of people.
Or maybe just because people are people!

But back to the thread, do you know of any Western country acting on religious grounds that would take a similar course of action over an incident involving kids naming a teddy bear after a prophet?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:31 AM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto View Post

I doubt if they find it funny, they are fighting an enemy who does not wear uniforms and who operate in populated areas, having said that I do considered that action by the Israeli army is frequently disproportionate. I also find the situation so confusing, so steeped in years, if not, centuries of hate, that I would hesitate to judge the over-all situation
yes but that doesn't mean it's acceptable or rational to bomb a house full of children just because one person was a suspect.

Quote:
Or maybe just because people are people!
That's a very fatalistic attitude to have

Quote:
But back to the thread, do you know of any Western country acting on religious grounds that would take a similar course of action over an incident involving kids naming a teddy bear after a prophet?
Roberto, you're hardly going to find an identical incident to that because it's so stupid. Stupidity isn't contained to a group of people depending on their religion and ethnicity, or do you disagree?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

The more pressing question is why Roberto still can't figure out how to properly use the quote function, in spite of being a member of this forum for quite some time.

Anyhow, if these facts are true (and thats a big "if"), then the Sudanese government is in the wrong and needs to chill their islam yo.
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Old 11-28-2007, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto View Post
Yeah sure, Liverpool in the USA, hem I wonder if there is a Liverpool in the USA, they have many English named cities and towns.

If there is a wider angle it's probably due the UK's imperial past.

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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2007, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

Update :

updated 9:46 a.m. CT, Wed., Nov. 28, 2007

KHARTOUM, Sudan - A British teacher has been charged with inciting hatred, insulting religion and showing contempt of religious beliefs after her class named a teddy bear Muhammad, state media said on Wednesday.

"Khartoum north prosecution unit has completed its investigation and has charged the Briton Gillian (Gibbons) under Article 125 of the criminal code," SUNA said quoting a senior Justice Ministry official.

It added the file would go before court on Thursday.

In London, a British Foreign Office spokesman confirmed that Gibbons had been charged and officials said Foreign Secretary David Miliband was calling in the Sudanese ambassador over the affair.

"We are surprised and disappointed by this development and the foreign secretary will summon as a matter of urgency the Sudanese ambassador to discuss this matter further," Prime Minister Gordon Brown's official spokesman said.

Earlier on Wednesday, three British embassy officials and a teaching colleague from the Unity High School where Gibbons worked were allowed to visit her for 90 minutes.

"I can confirm that we have met Ms. Gibbons and she said she is being treated well," said British consul Russell Phillips. "We remain in close contact with the Sudanese authorities on this case," he said, declining to give further details.

Gibbons was arrested Sunday and, if found guilty of insulting religion, could be punished with a whipping of up to 40 lashes, a fine or six months in prison.

On Tuesday, a Sudanese embassy spokesman in London had indicated Gibbons might soon be freed.

"The police is bound to investigate," embassy spokesman Khalid al-Mubarak told British Broadcasting Corp. radio. "I am pretty certain that this minute incident will be clarified very quickly and this teacher who has been helping us with the teaching of children will be safe and will be cleared."

Gibbons was arrested after one of her pupils' parents complained, accusing her of naming the bear after Islam's prophet and founder. Muhammad is a common name among Muslim men, but giving the prophet's name to an animal would be seen as insulting by many Muslims.

School apologizes
Several Sudanese newspapers ran a statement Tuesday reportedly from Unity High School saying the administration "offers an official apology to the students and their families and all Muslims for what came from an individual initiative." It said Gibbons had been "removed from her work at the school."

In the first official comment on the case, the Sudanese Foreign Ministry on Tuesday played down the significance of the case, calling it "isolated despite our condemnation and rejection of it."

Ministry spokesman Ali al-Sadeq said it was an incidence of a "teacher's misconduct against the Islamic faith" but noted the school's apology.

The statement from the school in newspapers called it a "misunderstanding." It underlined the school's "deep respect for the heavenly religions" and for the "beliefs of Muslims and their rituals," adding that "the misunderstanding that has been raised over this issue leads to divisions that are disadvantageous to the reputation of the tolerant Sudanese people."

The school has closed for at least the next week until the controversy eases. The Unity High School, a private English-language school with elementary to high school levels, was founded by Christian groups, but 90 percent of its students are Muslim, mostly from upper-class Sudanese families.

The school's director, Robert Boulos, told the BBC that the incident was "a completely innocent mistake. Miss Gibbons would have never wanted to insult Islam."

Children reportedly chose name
Gibbons, 54, was teaching her pupils, who are around age 7, about animals and asked one of them to bring in her teddy bear, Boulos said. She asked the students to pick names for it and they proposed Abdullah, Hassan and Muhammad, and in the end the pupils voted to name it Muhammad, he said.

Each child was allowed to take the bear home on weekends and write a diary about what they did with it. The diary entries were collected in a book with the bear's picture on the cover, labeled, "My Name is Muhammad," he said. The bear itself was never labeled with the name, he added.
A former colleague of Gibbons, Jill Langworthy, told The Associated Press the diary lesson is a common one in Britain.

"She's a wonderful and inspirational teacher, and if she offended or insulted anybody she'd be dreadfully sorry," said Langworthy, who taught with Gibbons in Liverpool.

There were widespread calls in Britain for Gibbons' release. The Muslim Council of Britain calls upon the Sudanese government to intervene.


"This is a very unfortunate incident and Ms. Gibbons should never have been arrested in the first place. It is obvious that no malice was intended," said Muhammad Abdul Bari, the council's secretary-general.

British opposition Conservative party lawmaker William Hague called on the British government to "make it clear to the Sudanese authorities that she should be released immediately."

"To condemn Gillian Gibbons to such brutal and barbaric punishment for what appears to be an innocent mistake is clearly unacceptable," he said.

Follows cartoon incident
The case recalled the outrage that was sparked in the Islamic world when European newspapers ran cartoons deriding the Prophet Muhammad, prompting sometimes violent protests in many Muslim countries. The prophet is highly revered by Muslims, and most interpretations of the religion bar even favorable depictions of him, for fear of encouraging idolatry or misrepresenting him.

Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir earlier this month suggested he would ban Denmark, Sweden and Norway — where newspapers ran the cartoons — from contributing engineering personnel to a planned U.N.-African Union peacekeeping force in the Sudanese region of Darfur.

Al-Bashir's government already has tense relations with the West, which has widely condemned his regime for alleged abuses in Darfur where more than 200,000 people have died in a conflict that began in early 2003.

Sudan charges Briton with insulting religion - Africa - MSNBC.com
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2007, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluestar View Post
Quote:
yes but that doesn't mean it's acceptable or rational to bomb a house full of children just because one person was a suspect.
Did I say that, did you refer to such specific case

Quote:
That's a very fatalistic attitude to have
Yes, trouble is it's not so hard to believe
Quote:
Roberto, you're hardly going to find an identical incident to that because it's so stupid.
I did say similar, however let’s worry about the word “stupid” is it really stupidity, or just a belief for some, that the interpretation of Islam’s holy writings requires such rigid interpretation and excessive application?


Stupidity isn't contained to a group of people depending on their religion and ethnicity, or do you disagree?

I agree, but as I suggested above is it stupidly or belief?
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:56 PM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

Quote:
Originally Posted by jinnzaman View Post
Quote:
The more pressing question is why Roberto still can't figure out how to properly use the quote function, in spite of being a member of this forum for quite some time.
So for you, it's a more pressing question !


Quote:
Anyhow, if these facts are true (and thats a big "if"), then the Sudanese government is in the wrong and needs to chill their islam yo.
From later developments it's a pretty small "if"

Guess you’re have to put your head in the sand
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Old 11-28-2007, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

This is hilarious.
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto View Post
I agree, but as I suggested above is it stupidly or belief?
well its obviously their belief, still doesn't rule out the stupidity though.
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: Teddy Bear Trouble in Sudan

From reading this I doubt she's going to be convicted.
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:42 AM
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