[Khairan]

Originally Posted by SaidAbdullahofDarfur

His evidence is in history.

ALLAH(SWT) Gave us natural cures for ever disease known to us.

The "natural" vs. "unnatural" argument that people like to rely on is one of the laziest and silliest forms of rhetoric out there.

"Natural" things are not inherently better than "man-made" things, nor is the dichotomy a rational one. Bees make honey -- is that "unnatural"? Is cheese, a food that would not exist without human action, also "unnatural"? What is the difference between honey, and cheese, and penicillin? What about penicillin and simvastatin?

It is "natural" to do a lot of things that are bad for us, and a lot of the "unnatural" inventions we have come up with improve our quality of life and our survival. If you don't believe that, then go live in the middle of the woods and see how well you do without building any tools or making fires.

A syringe is no different from a spear, nor is taking digoxin philosophically or morally different from eating foxglove, and dying from a bad infection is far more "natural" than taking medicine to survive it.

In fact, the principles of modern medicine and pharmacology come down to one very simple idea: demonstrate that something works and then people will use it. This evidence-based approach has revolutionized the way we approach healthcare and has incorporated a well-accepted method of systematic self-review into a profession (medicine) which has historically been incredibly conservative and slow to change.

Ideas that were thought to be utterly absurd have transformed medicine and become standards of care simply because people were able to prove that they were right through experimentation and documented evidence. A classic example is the complete rethinking of how gastric ulcers are treated. We know now that bacterial infections are a very common cause, but the idea was ridiculed until someone actually demonstrated that it was correct, and now treating ulcers with antibiotics is a common and highly successful practice.

All the conspiracy theories in the world and the false appeals to "nature" don't change those fundamental issues, and I notice that for all of your ranting and raving about the medical establishment you've yet to offer any real evidence (involving populations, numbers, facts, and statistics) that can demonstrate how "alternative medicine" (which has a utility undisputed by modern doctors) can completely replace mainstream medicine.

By the way, I hope you don't take tylenol or aspirin for headaches or go to the doctor when you're sick, and have no plans of doing so in the future. It would be pretty phenomenally hypocritical of you to disparage "the establishment" only to use it the next time you get ill. If you don't, though, points for consistency.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Kaminyu

Unfortunately, I do not know the name of it, only that it had mercury in it and was used on babies, or really small children.

well, you are either talking about MMR (which never contained mercury but was falsely associated with autism) or with the thiomersal-containing vaccines (thiomersal is a mercury containing compound that is no longer used in vaccines in America and was never shown to increase autism risk anyway)

This is the kind of thing that these yuppie and hippie parents do. They hear some vague nonsense, read some garbage on blogs and websites run by unemployed communists and random idiots, and suddenly feel that they know more about these topics than the vast majority of doctors worldwide who have spent decades training and practicing medicine. Then they make decisions based on their ignorance, which effect the safety and health of their kids and other kids whom their kids interact with

somebody who is completely ignorant of how a car works wouldnt pop his hood and start randomly fidgeting in there with a wrench, and yet these idiots feel that they can make decisions like that with their children's health. They'll be held accountable for it on judgment day of course, for their vanity and stupidity, if their kids develop preventable and potentially lethal infections

Originally Posted by Kaminyu

The problem with this, is that smallpox began declining beforehand, and some of those who were vaccinated still contracted it anyway.

if you are trying to suggest that smallpox died out completely on its own, down to the very last case, just as the vaccine was being used.... then i'm sorry but thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard and it is also not backed up by science, however the efficacy of the smallpox vaccine IS backed up by very extensive research.

Originally Posted by Kaminyu

There are some who disagree about the effectiveness of vaccination as well. There is no "alternative medicine" to vaccination that I know of. I was talking about medicine in general, not just "vaccinations", when I mentioned it. Vaccinations aren't the only thing pharmaceutical corporations make money off of, and their hostility to alternative treatments becomes really obvious when stuff like this happens.

Yes there are people who disagree about vaccines, theyre called idiots.

And all those communists and hippies who dont take medicine will run to the nearest free clinic when their commune's love-pile gives them HIV

theres the realm of make believe that these morons live in, then there is the reality of health and disease, and when they come down with a real and serious illness they usually snap out of their vain and ignorant daze

Originally Posted by Kaminyu

I don't have a problem with vaccinations, as long they work with no dangerous side effects.

they have saved tens of millions of lives if not hundreds of millions, with a small handful of serious cases of side effects, so i think thats safe to say

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by SaidAbdullahofDarfur

They take medicine for depression, It makes them Suicidal.
They Take Chemo for Cancer, The Chemo kills them before the cancer.

Good grief. Can you try a little harder to know what you're talking about before you make claims like this?

Anti-depressants DO NOT make people suicidal. What occurs is that people who are severely depressed become increasingly suicidal as their depression improves slightly. The reason this happens is because at the extreme of depression people suffer from anhedonia, a state in which they do not feel very much of anything, and become very lethargic and inactive. While the depression of such a state is worse, the suicide risk is lower because these people are emotionally numb. As people improve from this state they remain severely depressed but have more energy and this is the time when they are capable of taking the initiative to kill themselves. The effect is related to mood, not pharmacology.

As for chemotherapy "killing patients before cancer," I'm not sure this even needs to be addressed it is so blatantly false. CAN patients die from chemotherapy-related complications? Indeed they can. Does chemotherapy in general improve outcomes in cancer patients? Unequivocally, yes it does. There are large numbers of people that "beat" cancer these days, many of whom are children. If you'd like to actually try and "prove" that chemotherapy increases mortality of cancer patients, be my guest. I won't hold my breath.

[Bruinrab]

As my psychiatrist parent says to patients who claim marijuana is healthy because it "natural":

So is arsenic!

[SaidAbdullahofDarfur]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

As my psychiatrist parent says to patients who claim marijuana is healthy because it "natural":

So is arsenic!

Natural doesn't mean healthy....
I don't think anyone ever made that claim sister....

[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by SaidAbdullahofDarfur

Natural doesn't mean healthy....
I don't think anyone ever made that claim sister....

Oh please, that's the implicit claim made in multiple posts in this thread.

[Kaminyu]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

well, you are either talking about MMR (which never contained mercury but was falsely associated with autism) or with the thiomersal-containing vaccines (thiomersal is a mercury containing compound that is no longer used in vaccines in America and was never shown to increase autism risk anyway)

This is the kind of thing that these yuppie and hippie parents do. They hear some vague nonsense, read some garbage on blogs and websites run by unemployed communists and random idiots, and suddenly feel that they know more about these topics than the vast majority of doctors worldwide who have spent decades training and practicing medicine. Then they make decisions based on their ignorance, which effect the safety and health of their kids and other kids whom their kids interact with

somebody who is completely ignorant of how a car works wouldnt pop his hood and start randomly fidgeting in there with a wrench, and yet these idiots feel that they can make decisions like that with their children's health. They'll be held accountable for it on judgment day of course, for their vanity and stupidity, if their kids develop preventable and potentially lethal infections

Except the information they come across actually comes from doctors themselves, not "unemployed communists" or "random idiots".

if you are trying to suggest that smallpox died out completely on its own, down to the very last case, just as the vaccine was being used.... then i'm sorry but thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard and it is also not backed up by science, however the efficacy of the smallpox vaccine IS backed up by very extensive research.

I'm saying that there are other factors that should be taken into account as well, as contributing to the decrease in smallpox.

Yes there are people who disagree about vaccines, theyre called idiots.

That depends on why they disagree with vaccines.

And all those communists and hippies who dont take medicine will run to the nearest free clinic when their commune's love-pile gives them HIV

theres the realm of make believe that these morons live in, then there is the reality of health and disease, and when they come down with a real and serious illness they usually snap out of their vain and ignorant daze

You're talking about people who don't care for medicine at all, while I'm talking about people who simply don't care for conventional medicine. There's a difference.

they have saved tens of millions of lives if not hundreds of millions, with a small handful of serious cases of side effects, so i think thats safe to say

And as I said before, some disagree with those stats.

[Kaminyu]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Oh please, that's the implicit claim made in multiple posts in this thread.

Actually, the implicit claim seems to be that natural remedies are better than conventional medicine, not that anything natural is good.

[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by Kaminyu

Actually, the implicit claim seems to be that natural remedies are better than conventional medicine, not that anything natural is good.

Many people take that argument to the extreme, hence the original comment.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Kaminyu

Except the information they come across actually comes from doctors themselves, not "unemployed communists" or "random idiots".

No it doesnt come from doctors, it comes from unemployed communists, random idiots, quacks who call themselves doctors but are really self-described doctors without MD's or any other medical degree, and one doctor named Wakefield whose reputation was destroyed by his dishonest and unethical article on this subject which caused a scandal and was rescinded from the journal that published it.

Originally Posted by Kaminyu

I'm saying that there are other factors that should be taken into account as well, as contributing to the decrease in smallpox.

Smallpox incidence decreased because of public health practices, then the virus disappeared because of the vaccine. Thats it. There are no other factors that need to be taken into account because the vaccine eradicated the virus.

Originally Posted by Kaminyu

That depends on why they disagree with vaccines.

no it doesnt because they are disagreeing with mountains of scientific evidence and massive public health success, on the basis of nothing substantial, making them idiots.

Originally Posted by Kaminyu

You're talking about people who don't care for medicine at all, while I'm talking about people who simply don't care for conventional medicine. There's a difference.

No i am talking about people who dont care for conventional medicine because that is the form that will stop them from dying of an HIV infection or becoming infected with pertussis or hepatitis b. Alternative medicines have a VERY narrow spectrum of applications where they are successful.

Originally Posted by Kaminyu

And as I said before, some disagree with those stats.

yeah and like i said those people are called idiots for reasons that i have explained already.

[jinnzaman]

This isn't a scientific issue, its a legal and ethical issue. There are a plethora of threats out there, but what the state can or cannot do to deal with these threats is an entirely separate issue.

Lets remember that back in the 1930s, eugenics was deemed to be a reputable science and our courts upheld laws that forced sterilization of people deemed of 'weak genetic stock.'

The political system we have in America is one that is best described as a limited government. When the fundamental rights (life, liberty, property) are affected, generally speaking, the state must have a damn good reason for taking away this right and there must be no practical alternative.

With that said, immunization is a concern of the state. Our immigration laws require immunization for naturalization and also for seeking citizenship.

I think the issue in this case was over whether it was appropriate to force immunization by gunpoint and this has led to a criticism of the source of this mandate.

[Timbit]

What do people have against medicine?
And why are these people refusing to get their kids vaccinated?