[sally]

I saw this on TV earlier this evening. I just wanted to cry. The images were so disturbing... the whole thing is, really. I don't think I'd been this emotional for a while now. I'm going to try to see if I can find a video of the program on ABC because there was a lot more to it than just this article. Even the interviewee, the guy who did the research for his documentary on this topic was extremely emotional.


**

Muay Thai prizefighters Stam (right) and Nong Pet (left) compete to earn money for their families in rural Thailand. (Todd Kellstein )

ABC News: Child Boxing: Exploitation or Necessity?

How Young Is too Young to Be a Prize Fighter?
The Business of Muay Thai Martial Arts in Thailand

By CHARLES LYONS
Oct. 9, 2007

Two 8-year-old Thai girls, wearing colorful headbands, shorts and T-shirts, their cheeks painted red, perform a slow ritualistic dance in a makeshift boxing ring. They kneel and bless their respective corners before facing off and striking a pose.

"When I first saw it, I absolutely thought it was child abuse," filmmaker Todd Kellstein told "20/20" co-anchor Elizabeth Vargas. "I thought it was horrible. … It was evil fathers and mothers who didn't care about their child."

Fighting for Survival

Kellstein says his views evolved as he documented child fighting in Thailand's remote provinces for two years for his film "Raised in the Ring."

The documentary tracks the maturation of two young prize fighters: Stam, 8, a striking, vivacious girl; and Nong Pet, 9, subdued and serious. Both girls' families desperately needed the cash and both appeared happy to help out.

"I fight to make my mom and dad happy," Stam told Kellstein through a translator. "They work very hard, and I am very, very poor." Similarly, Nong Pet, through a translator, said that she gives her money to her parents so they "can pay the rent and buy stuff."

Nong Pet, who came from even greater poverty than Stam, wins the first match between the two. Soon, however, the tables turn. Stam beats Nong Pet several times and becomes the most successful girl boxer in Thailand at her weight class (20 kilos, or 44 pounds); she currently commands a guaranteed 2,000 Baht ($63) per fight, plus a piece of whatever the total betting purse is. Her earnings are so substantial they enable her to buy her parents a new home. Meanwhile, Nong Pet's situation worsens during the time Kellstein films her — she was forced to take an exhibition match in a brothel, accepting tips from Westerners.

Although he wasn't sure about the long-term effects of Muay Thai on children, Kellstein ultimately found it to be an economic necessity. "I don't think we really understand it," he told Vargas. "We don't have poverty on that level."

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[Laimuun]

I saw the program and was also deeply disturbed.. the first thing I said to my husband was that it was child abuse. but do you remember what the filmmaker said? one of the girls, after winning a fight, made about the same amount of money as the average thai citizen makes in a year. and impoverished familes all around the world send their kids out to work in deplorable conditions, some of which are just as dangerous as what these girls are doing, astagfirallah. but I suppose it's just so much more disturbing to see because these kids are being trained in acts of agression towards other children.

[sally]

Yeah, do you remember when they show a fight and one of the girls loses? Afterwards, her mother tells her she can't come home. It was so sad. The dude filming the documentary got some footage after the fight and the girl was in a secluded area, crying. 8 years old, man it broke my freaking heart. When I'm working out, it takes a lot to feel any sort of emotion because of the whole good hormone release. But I was running while watching this and I felt like crumbling right there. Anyway, since she lost the fight, she had to go around asking the audience for tips like out of pity. I missed something he said right after that. Something about the equivalent of what a 'sexual' entertainer in the West would do; I'm really hoping he didn't say that she has to go around asking people if they would like her services or something because that would just be sick.

[Laimuun]

Originally Posted by sally

Yeah, do you remember when they show a fight and one of the girls loses? Afterwards, her mother tells her she can't come home. It was so sad. The dude filming the documentary got some footage after the fight and the girl was in a secluded area, crying. 8 years old, man it broke my freaking heart. When I'm working out, it takes a lot to feel any sort of emotion because of the whole good hormone release. But I was running while watching this and I felt like crumbling right there. Anyway, since she lost the fight, she had to go around asking the audience for tips like out of pity. I missed something he said right after that. Something about the equivalent of what a 'sexual' entertainer in the West would do; I'm really hoping he didn't say that she has to go around asking people if they would like her services or something because that would just be sick.

no, she didnt have to offer sexual services. but that fight was in a brothel.. the people she was asking for tips from were there for services from the women there. astagfirallah, I cried too when her mom told she couldn't go home.. poor girl lived in the gym she trained at.

[shadha]

Thank you. This is another perfect example of people having children that they can’t afford. The children get exploited and abused.

There is no excuse under the sun that would justify parents enslaving and/or exploiting their children for money. Absolute child abuse and it’s a damn shame. It’s so disgusting how commonplace child labor, child slavery, child brides & child prostitution has become. The governments are failing these poor innocent children, and so is society as a whole. We are not doing enough to prevent & stop it.

First thing that came to my mind when I read this article was dog fighting. With force, raising and training dogs [in this case young girls] to beat the living **** out of each other for money. I wonder how many girls have died from this brutal abuse and exploitation thus far.

I’m sorry, to me, even children who are forced into karate or other sports here and get verbally attacked by their parents constitutes child abuse. How many times have we heard parents cursing their young children out who aren’t doing well on the field? When I was doing TKD when I was younger, a father was yelling and calling his daughter a ***** because she wasn’t fighting up to his standards. Child. Abuse. I don’t want to imagine what happened to that girl once home.


shadha-

[shadha]

I now recall this news documentary I saw of these parents who sold their child off in order to afford the rent on their house. Their child works making cigars.


shadha-

[Aryan_]

Which kid won? I had a few pennies riding on this fight.

[Good_ol_JR]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Which kid won? I had a few pennies riding on this fight.

The article says girl on left won the first round, but girl on the right took control from there and went on to win the fight.

Also think some people are overreacting. I agree the exploitation and them fighting to support their families is sad, but dont call it barbaric just because the girls are training in Muay Thai at such a young age. MT is really the only sport taken seriously in Thailiand and the fighters, both male and female are greatly respected. Is it harsh at such a young age, yes. But think about it, child labor exists all throughout the world and things are just as bad if not worse than in this story. However, at least these girls are involved in a respected sport which they love; they will always get the applause of the audience and not be forgotten, unlike other kids engaged in dangerous labor.

Part of my family's Mexican and we're crazy passionate about boxing, almost as much as Thais are about Muay Thai; our uncle bought us some gloves and he used to have us spar with each other all the time when we were little. It hurts at first, but once you get into the sport you really begin to love it, even my female cousins enjoyed it. Reason is we never considered it to be fighting, its just a good, clean sport to us; just like how Muay Thai is for Thais. Its a great workout, teaches discipline, gives self-confidence, and self-defense. It doesnt make you violent, it just gives you the ability to walk with confidence and have a greater respect for yourself. So dont go bashing the culture; especially while they're so many examples of child/female mistreatment in your own culture.

I have the utmost respect for MT fighters, male and female they are amongst the hardest working athletes in the world. Ask any Thai person they will tell you the same, it is one of the most respected professions in the country.

[sally]

Originally Posted by shadha

Thank you. This is another perfect example of people having children that they can’t afford. The children get exploited and abused.

There is no excuse under the sun that would justify parents enslaving and/or exploiting their children for money. Absolute child abuse and it’s a damn shame. It’s so disgusting how commonplace child labor, child slavery, child brides & child prostitution has become. The governments are failing these poor innocent children, and so is society as a whole. We are not doing enough to prevent & stop it.

First thing that came to my mind when I read this article was dog fighting. With force, raising and training dogs [in this case young girls] to beat the living **** out of each other for money. I wonder how many girls have died from this brutal abuse and exploitation thus far.

I’m sorry, to me, even children who are forced into karate or other sports here and get verbally attacked by their parents constitutes child abuse. How many times have we heard parents cursing their young children out who aren’t doing well on the field? When I was doing TKD when I was younger, a father was yelling and calling his daughter a ***** because she wasn’t fighting up to his standards. Child. Abuse. I don’t want to imagine what happened to that girl once home.


shadha-

What is your proposed solution? Population control helps to some extent, but it starts with proper sexual education and birth control resources. Without those, and undoubtedly those are lacking in these types of communities, there's nothing that one can really do. Abstaining from intimate relations is not the solution. You're going to end up having a bunch of snipers or something, as a result of all that sexual aggression.

Population control will end up having awful consequences. Take China, for example. They've always valued boys over girls, but with the one child policy (even though ever since 2002 it's been a bit more relaxed policy), their male to female ratio is now royally screwed. In fact, probability theories suggest that in some years time there's going to be single, marriageable aged women everywhere. It's actually evident from now on.

Also, their economy is booming and they need all their males to work their butts off to keep up with their country. The ratio of elderly people and adult children has also increased significantly, and they've got this new "4:2:1" concept as a result. It basically means that more couples (2) will be responsible for one child (1) AND both the couples' parents (4).

So you see, there are all these disastrous social consequences.

More details at: NEJM -- The Effect of China's One-Child Family Policy after 25 Years

Oh, I also forgot to mention the icing on the cake. Which is, in some localities in China, there's an 'area quota' of children. So though everyone is given the notion that they can have as many children as they want, there's still a quota. But every couples in the area is not going to know the family plans of every other couple in the area and naturally, the locality is going to go over the quota. In such cases, the government (though they won't admit it) rounds up the pregnant women in the locality, snatching them away from their husbands, drives them to a hospital and forcefully aborts each and everyone one of their children.

Read this for more info: NPR : Cases of Forced Abortions Surface in China


[I'm also posting this in your Why Have Kids? thread because it's more relevant there).

[sally]

Originally Posted by Good_ol_JR

The article says girl on left won the first round, but girl on the right took control from there and went on to win the fight.

Also think some people are overreacting. I agree the exploitation and them fighting to support their families is sad, but dont call it barbaric just because the girls are training in Muay Thai at such a young age. MT is really the only sport taken seriously in Thailiand and the fighters, both male and female are greatly respected. Is it harsh at such a young age, yes. But think about it, child labor exists all throughout the world and things are just as bad if not worse than in this story. However, at least these girls are involved in a respected sport which they love; they will always get the applause of the audience and not be forgotten, unlike other kids engaged in dangerous labor.

Wait, did you even read the article? The girls don't do it because they want to, they do it because all the pressure in the world is on them from such a young age. Also, there's little to no protective gear during the fights.

[Good_ol_JR]

Originally Posted by sally

Wait, did you even read the article? The girls don't do it because they want to, they do it because all the pressure in the world is on them from such a young age. Also, there's little to no protective gear during the fights.

Admit I didnt read the article, just responding to people who were bashing the sport. I dunno what you mean by protective gear, that's how MT is fought. Fights are either with gloves or bare-knuckle, but to be honest it hardly makes a diff. your not likely to get hit as fluidly in bareknuckle fights so amount of pain is about the same. However, rules of MT have greatly evolved since the old days of Muay Boran, and its a lot safer. And the referee is def. going to be stricter on a girls bout, than he would if they were grown men or women. Again Thai's have a great love for this sport, which is why they keep it as safe as possible while maintaining the "sweet science of 8 limbs" (8 limbs being hands, legs, knees, and elbows)

The spectators are not bloodthristy people; like I said its a sport to them not a fight. Yeah I dont like the idea of the girl's being forced to fight either, but it beats other forms of child labor. The girls are well-trained and know what they're getting into, they're also greatly honored unlike other victims of child labor.