[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Musashi

Asallamu 'alaikum wa rahmatulLahi wa barakatuh

While I agree with the selling of alcohol being haram (which it is, unless you'd rather those Muslims had Allah's curse on them?), everything else is far too extreme, especially the sex thing with the doctors.
Not very smart thinking.

Even that's kinda dumb - in my opinion - if you're working as a cashier in a grocery store, you're not the one selling alcohol. You're simply processing the sale at the till / cash register. Its the store chain that's selling the alcohol.

What I ask people in that particular situation is - when you were applying at the store for a job, didn't you know that the store sells alcohol as well? Why would then make yourself a nuisance after you've been hired?

[Caramel_Candy]

You may be surprised but there are lots of pharmacists who refuse to sell the morning after pill..In my state the pharmacist has a right to refuse a sale if he or she sees it as ethically wrong. This girl came in to my pharmacy one time and wanted to buy the pill and both pharmacists refused in additon to the technicians working...a lot of people don't believe in it.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Caramel_Candy

You may be surprised but there are lots of pharmacists who refuse to sell the morning after pill..In my state the pharmacist has a right to refuse a sale if he or she sees it as ethically wrong. This girl came in to my pharmacy one time and wanted to buy the pill and both pharmacists refused in additon to the technicians working...a lot of people don't believe in it.

The individual pharmacist themself has the right to refuse the drugs? I'd think that there'd be a company wide policy on that kind of thing. That sounds like bad business practice in the sense that a customer won't know if they are going into a store whether they're going to be able to purchase their stock, or be made out to be immoral. What state do you live in?

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by Variable

The individual pharmacist themself has the right to refuse the drugs? I'd think that there'd be a company wide policy on that kind of thing. That sounds like bad business practice in the sense that a customer won't know if they are going into a store whether they're going to be able to purchase their stock, or be made out to be immoral. What state do you live in?

What she's talking about are "conscience clauses," and they vary quite widely in their implementation and legality, depending on region and employer.

A little background.

My own feelings on this topic:
The approach to conscience clauses needs to be tailored to the situation, and in particular needs to be different for trainees vs. trained professionals. Trainees, who are still learning and require a relatively broad education, need to see most things that occur in their professions, particularly when they will certainly be dealing with these situations during routine patient care. It might be okay, for instance, for a medical student to not learn how to perform abortions (which are largely taught during residency anyway), but not okay for a medical student not to learn how to perform genital exams for the opposite sex (knowledge that will be needed before starting residency).

Further, trained professionals ought to have more latitude in what they will and will not do because they are in a position to tailor the nature of their practices. However, conscience clauses should not exempt them from treating current patients, and providers must offer access to other providers who do offer the service in question. An obstetrician who does not want to perform abortion should be able to defer the procedure, but must connect the patient with a doctor who *will* perform the procedure if the patient is already a part of his practice.

There are a number of "ifs" and "buts" that complicate the picture further, but as a broad outline I think that's how things should work (but they don't necessarily do).

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Caramel_Candy

You may be surprised but there are lots of pharmacists who refuse to sell the morning after pill..In my state the pharmacist has a right to refuse a sale if he or she sees it as ethically wrong. This girl came in to my pharmacy one time and wanted to buy the pill and both pharmacists refused in additon to the technicians working...a lot of people don't believe in it.

Yeah, well... I don't think that's right either.
She's gonna be able to get the pill anyway. It'll just be a little more inconvenient.

Really dumb. Health care professionals shouldn't have the right to opt out of treating anybody.

[nooni]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Yeah, well... I don't think that's right either.
She's gonna be able to get the pill anyway. It'll just be a little more inconvenient.

Really dumb. Health care professionals shouldn't have the right to opt out of treating anybody.

i disagree.

the morning after pill is the emergency contraception, and may act as an abortion if the women did get pregnant. Islamically, we noe this is haram. but many pharmacists, non muslims as well, dont give it out because of their opposition to abortion in general.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Khairan

but not okay for a medical student not to learn how to perform genital exams for the opposite sex (knowledge that will be needed before starting residency).

Aw man. You guys have no idea how much I respect what you do, and how you do it professionally, because I don't think I ever could.

Anyway, thanks for the info... but I don't know if I was referring more to actual physicians as I was to pharmacy clerks at big chain stores. If I was going to run a major pharmacy, I'd want people to know that if we sold a certain product, they'd be able to buy it without the possibility of being made to feel immoral depending on who's serving them.

I definitely agree with you though, about how doctors should deal with situations regarding what they feel is amoral. Provided it's within the context of the law of course.

I'm actually curious how much time as a percentage a medical student has to devote to legal issues. I'd imagine you guys are part lawyer as well

[raatkirani2005]

Originally Posted by nooni

i disagree.

the morning after pill is the emergency contraception, and may act as an abortion if the women did get pregnant. Islamically, we noe this is haram. but many pharmacists, non muslims as well, dont give it out because of their opposition to abortion in general.

Nooni, I have to disagree with some of the statements above. Morning after pill (i.e. Plan B) is vastly different from the abortion pill (RU 486). The morning after pill is basically a double dose of regular birth control pills and it works by delaying imminent ovulation and creating an internal environment that won't allow the egg and sperm to unite. Some people who believe a pregnancy starts at conception question Plan B because it possibly won't allow the fertilized egg to attach to the uterus. Others who believe that pregnancy begins at implantation don't believe that a fertilized egg isn't enough to be called a pregnancy and have no qualms with Plan B.

It does NOT affect an already existing pregnancy, just like regular birth control pills will not affect an existing pregnancy (remember that the pill is basically made up of hormones that fool your body into thinking it's already pregnant.) Also, if you look at the package insert that comes with contraceptive pills, and if you're good at math, you can figure out how to convert regular pills into something like plan B. RU486 is the abortion pill and that

There are many pharmacists who refuse to dispense regular birth control pills and Plan B because of their faith and their disapproval of this method of contraception (for example, a lot of Catholic pharmacists and Catholic hospital pharamacies do not carry birth control). I don't agree with it necessarily, but I do understand where they're coming from. If I had a pizza parlor, that doesn't mean I HAVE to sell beer and pepperoni because other places do.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

i thought this was about doctors being picky about who they marry, since after all they are the top of the b.s. desi caste, that so many desi muslims still practice, you bunch of jahils!

[MossadConspiracy]

dude you're such a hater

[AceOfHearts]

Cause?

Failure to adhere to the Qur'an properly.

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by AceOfHearts

Cause?

Failure to adhere to the Qur'an properly.

What does the koran say about my right to beat my wives?

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by raatkirani2005

Nooni, I have to disagree with some of the statements above. Morning after pill (i.e. Plan B) is vastly different from the abortion pill (RU 486). The morning after pill is basically a double dose of regular birth control pills and it works by delaying imminent ovulation and creating an internal environment that won't allow the egg and sperm to unite. Some people who believe a pregnancy starts at conception question Plan B because it possibly won't allow the fertilized egg to attach to the uterus. Others who believe that pregnancy begins at implantation don't believe that a fertilized egg isn't enough to be called a pregnancy and have no qualms with Plan B.

It does NOT affect an already existing pregnancy, just like regular birth control pills will not affect an existing pregnancy (remember that the pill is basically made up of hormones that fool your body into thinking it's already pregnant.) Also, if you look at the package insert that comes with contraceptive pills, and if you're good at math, you can figure out how to convert regular pills into something like plan B. RU486 is the abortion pill and that

There are many pharmacists who refuse to dispense regular birth control pills and Plan B because of their faith and their disapproval of this method of contraception (for example, a lot of Catholic pharmacists and Catholic hospital pharamacies do not carry birth control). I don't agree with it necessarily, but I do understand where they're coming from. If I had a pizza parlor, that doesn't mean I HAVE to sell beer and pepperoni because other places do.

Originally Posted by nooni

i disagree.

the morning after pill is the emergency contraception, and may act as an abortion if the women did get pregnant. Islamically, we noe this is haram. but many pharmacists, non muslims as well, dont give it out because of their opposition to abortion in general.

It's not like somebody is asking them to perform an abortion.
The pizza parlour analogy isn't very sophisticated. We're talking about medical care here.

And where do you draw the line between refusing to fill a prescription for birth control pills and refusing to treat a patient with liver damage due to drinking too much?

And the whole thing about these students not wanting to examine patients of the opposite sex....

[fatima]

Originally Posted by Variable

Anyway, thanks for the info... but I don't know if I was referring more to actual physicians as I was to pharmacy clerks at big chain stores. If I was going to run a major pharmacy, I'd want people to know that if we sold a certain product, they'd be able to buy it without the possibility of being made to feel immoral depending on who's serving them.

when plan B first went over the counter, the company i work for sent out an email to all the pharmacists saying basically what khairan said, that if we had a moral objection to selling it, we had to find a way for them to get it. basically we couldnt just say 'sorry i cant help you', we would have to call another store and make sure that they had it and that their pharmacist would sell it.

also, what raatkirani said is correct about the difference between the morning after pill and the medication misoprostil which causes abortion. i have no problem selling birth control or plan B. but i have, and will always refuse to fill prescriptions if that medication is going to abort a healthy pregnancy. i dont want any part of that. similarly, i will not sell needles to drug users. no matter who is asking to buy them, i always ask to see some sort of proof that they are not for illicit purposes. i have never had anyone but the people intending to use them for drugs object to being asked. but...if that same patient came into the pharmacy with a prescription for suboxone ( a drug used to treat narcotic addiction) i would not refuse to fill it.