A prayer from an atheist ...

[Foxhole]

Not too much blood in Iran tomorrow.

There's no way the regime will turn the fate of Islamic rule in Iran over to democracy (since they know 100% that they would be gone in a heartbeat), so they are either going to fall by force and popular will, or they will crush the protests and remain.

But this time there is no hiding their activities. We're seeing what I have harped on over and over again: the rule of a nation is either maintained by democracy, or by force. There is no third option. Iran is the latter, and we're about to see that in full display tomorrow.

I fear that a lot of young people will die.

Long live freedom.
Long live equality.
Long live democracy.

Death to dictators.

[MossadConspiracy]

YouTube - Independence Day - Speech By The President (Bill Pullman)

YouTube - Independence Day - Speech By The President (Bill Pullman)

[Khairan]

I've always said U.S. policy on Iran was hideously stupid, and I think what is going on now is really proof of that.

The Iranis are an independent people, and if they want a revolution they will get one, of that I am certain. If they were able to throw down a puppet government backed by all the power of the West, they certainly can deal with their own, rather more isolated regime now.

I don't know whether this election was truly rigged or whether there is simply a great deal of growing popular dissent against conservatism in Iran, but I do think, as the following article says, "the genie is out of the bottle" now. Iran will have to deal with this dissent rather than suppress it, which ultimately is likely to have a good outcome for the Irani republic. We can only hope that there isn't bloodshed in the bargain, but it seems that that too is likely.


Iran's supreme leader warns protesters - CNN.com

[Jamroll]

Foxhole said

Not too much blood in Iran tomorrow.

There's no way the regime will turn the fate of Islamic rule in Iran over to democracy (since they know 100% that they would be gone in a heartbeat), so they are either going to fall by force and popular will, or they will crush the protests and remain.

But this time there is no hiding their activities. We're seeing what I have harped on over and over again: the rule of a nation is either maintained by democracy, or by force. There is no third option. Iran is the latter, and we're about to see that in full display tomorrow.

I fear that a lot of young people will die.

Long live freedom.
Long live equality.
Long live democracy.

Death to dictators.

How can you have a "prayer" from an atheist? Who are you praying to? If God doesn't exist, then you are just talking to yourself. That's pretty dumb, dude.

[ChotooMotoo]

Jamroll said

How can you have a "prayer" from an atheist? Who are you praying to? If God doesn't exist, then you are just talking to yourself. That's pretty dumb, dude.

I talk to myself all the time

[Foxhole]

Jamroll said

How can you have a "prayer" from an atheist? Who are you praying to? If God doesn't exist, then you are just talking to yourself. That's pretty dumb, dude.

Just a less-than-original turn of phrase for me. But check out this guy!

[roberto]

[quote=Khairan;330682]

I've always said U.S. policy on Iran was hideously stupid, and I think what is going on now is really proof of that

.


Explain

[Khairan]

roberto said

Explain

The U.S. has expended a lot of resources (Operation Ajax, the Iran-Iraq War) trying to control Iran and its government, and American policy in that region has always been a miserable failure. Iran was a more liberal, democratic nation before Western powers started meddling with their government, and I maintain that much of the environment in Iran now is a reaction to foreign interventionalism. I think the Iranis are a very independent people who will have their own way eventually, and my contention has always been that if the U.S. stopped interfering eventually Iran would liberalize on its own.

[wheelworks]

roberto said

quote=Khairan;330682].


Explain

You butchered the quote

[roberto]

Khairan said

The U.S. has expended a lot of resources (Operation Ajax, the Iran-Iraq War) trying to control Iran and its government, and American policy in that region has always been a miserable failure. Iran was a more liberal, democratic nation before Western powers started meddling with their government, and I maintain that much of the environment in Iran now is a reaction to foreign interventionalism. I think the Iranis are a very independent people who will have their own way eventually, and my contention has always been that if the U.S. stopped interfering eventually Iran would liberalize on its own.

Thanks
I agree re interference, but do you think the undemocratic structure of power in Iran is a result of this interference?

[Jaysh]

Foxhole said

Not too much blood in Iran tomorrow.

There's no way the regime will turn the fate of Islamic rule in Iran over to democracy (since they know 100% that they would be gone in a heartbeat), so they are either going to fall by force and popular will, or they will crush the protests and remain.

But this time there is no hiding their activities. We're seeing what I have harped on over and over again: the rule of a nation is either maintained by democracy, or by force. There is no third option. Iran is the latter, and we're about to see that in full display tomorrow.

I fear that a lot of young people will die.

Long live freedom.
Long live equality.
Long live democracy.

Death to dictators.

Popular sovereignty takes precedence over democracy. A democracy without popular sovereignty (such as what America envisions in Iraq) is a sham.

[proudtobemuslim]

Jaysh said

Popular sovereignty takes precedence over democracy. A democracy without popular sovereignty (such as what America envisions in Iraq) is a sham.

what are you talking about? are you saying Iraq lacks popular sovereignty?

[roberto]

proudtobemuslim said

what are you talking about? are you saying Iraq lacks popular sovereignty?

Lok it up :Treaty of Westphalia (1648),

[Foxhole]

Jaysh said

Popular sovereignty takes precedence over democracy. A democracy without popular sovereignty (such as what America envisions in Iraq) is a sham.

How do you know you have popular sovereignty without a democratic process to verify it? If you have an improvement to governance that does not entail popularly elected leaders and lawmakers, by all means let the world know.

As I write this it looks like the Saturday demonstations are a question mark. I hope that people do not assemble, because they will be savaged. There can be no question that the full implication of this movement is clear to the regime, and they know that they must send an unequivocal message: demonstrations, peaceful or not, will be seen as a challenge to the legitimacy of the regime and will be met with lethal force.

Here, crystallized as clearly as it can be, is proof that the people of Iran live under oppression.

[Khairan]

roberto said

Thanks
I agree re interference, but do you think the undemocratic structure of power in Iran is a result of this interference?

It is a direct result. The U.S. overthrew a burgeoning democracy in which Mossadegh -- an elected official -- was progressively become more influential in a country which was essentially a constitutional monarchy to that point. As a consequence, the efforts at forming a democracy were stifled and instead we had a U.S.-supported dictator running the country for years, until he was overthrown by a revolution which, initially a reaction to foreign interventionalism, ballooned into a religious movement that set up the modern Irani theocratic republic we have today.

The Americans, historically, are full of crap when they say they "support democracy." What they support are governments who will kowtow to them, and they really don't give a hoot whether it is a democracy, a dictatorship, or a chimp farm run by pink bananas. They want obedience first and foremost, all their moralizing notwithstanding.

And, lest we fool ourselves into thinking this sort of hypocritical, political cherry-picking was merely the product of a bygone era, Ron Paul, who has dissented against Congress's "support" of the voter protests in Iran, points out that while we are more than ready to rebuke the Irani government for "suppressing its voters," we are apparently only happy to do so when there is a political point to be made as we continue to (and always have) ignored the problems in allied countries such as Saudi Arabia where voters don't even have the measure of power that Iran affords them.


*************


One woman was apparently shot and killed during the protests yesterday, in circumstances that are not entirely clear. Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi raajiun.

'Neda' becomes rallying cry for Iranian protests

(CNN) -- "RIP NEDA, The World cries seeing your last breath, you didn't die in vain. We remember you."

That Twitter post was from a man who said he is a guitarist from Nashville, Tennessee.

Amid the hundreds of images of Saturday's crackdown on protesters in Iran that were distributed to the world over the Internet, it was the graphic video showing the dying moments of a young woman shot in the heart that touched a nerve for many people around the world.

Like most of the information coming out of Tehran, it is impossible to verify her name, Neda, or the circumstances of her apparent death, which was captured close-up on a bystander's camera.

CNN ran a pixilated version of the video, which was posted on YouTube. Another amateur video captured images of Neda and her father attending what appeared to be a peaceful protest, just moments before the shooting. VideoWatch Neda and her father moments before the shooting »

It shows a woman in jeans and white sneakers collapsed on the street, as the person with the camera -- most likely from a cell phone -- runs toward her and focuses on her face. VideoWatch a portion of the video and how the Twitter community is responding »

One blogger posted that Neda was protesting with her father in Tehran when pro-government Basiji militia opened fire and shot her.

"The final moments of her tender young life leaked into the pavement of Karegeh Street today, captured by cell phone cameras," the unnamed blogger posted on Newsvine.com. "And not long after, took on new life, flickering across computer screens around the world on YouTube, and even CNN."

People on Twitter started forming a discussion group with the "hashtag" #neda to post their comments about her death and media coverage of the killing, as well. VideoWatch report from CNN's Octavia Nasr »

It became one of the top "trending topics" on Twitter by Saturday evening, early Sunday Tehran time.

"Neda, ojala que tu muerte no sea en vano," one poster tweeted in Spanish. "Neda, I hope that your death is not in vain."


'Neda' becomes rallying cry for Iranian protests - CNN.com