[Timbit]

Alright, thanks everybody. So mahr isn't alimony. It's just a wedding gift.
Go easy on the guys.

I've never heard of anybody arguing over mahr though. My aunts who got married recently (like 6 years ago) don't even remember what their mahr was.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by raatkirani2005

That's a very wrong attitude and not conducive to marriage. In Arab countries for example, many men are marrying outside their areas because mahr demands are too high and it's creating a bit of a marriage crisis. Now you have guys who'll enter into misyar marriages because, guess what? They don't have to give their misyar wives a cent.

I think you also misunderstood my point. Yes, men from Arab countries seem to go for "cheap brides". But let me tell you how disastrous that is. Forget about the high rates of divorce amongst this fraction of society, but there's the issue of the "left behind brides". I'm sure you're aware of the scandalous conduct of many Arab men (usually rich/middle-class and from the Gulf) who go to Hyderabad in India, marry a girl, pay her a very modest mahr - minus all the other things usually given to an ordinary bride back home - and enjoy the company of these young brides for as long as their trip lasts.

That's what happens when they marry outside their countries. They don't value the women. They wouldn't do that to a woman from their own country, because they value their women. Because they fear a backlash from their families. They just don't dare. An outsider will be cheap, and remember, she won't require household help or anything. They'll always treat her like a maid.

I've seen it happen in my society, and I'm not proud of it. But I blame the women and their families equally, if not slightly more. You devalue your daughters/sisters, you'll always have men who take advantage of it. If a man can afford to pay, let him pay. If he cannot, that's a totally different story. I'm not saying a man has to take a loan in order to pay a good mahr. I'm strictly talking about those who can afford to pay more, yet flash that hadith about having more barakah when asking for less mahr.

Also, misyaar marriages are uncommon in the Gulf, except in Saudi Arabia. That's just the non-Shia version of mut3ah. Those who engage in it are not young, single men. They're usually married men, who want to take another wife.

Why is everyone so greedy when it comes to mahr? Assuming you'll have a traditional lifestyle where the husband works and the wife is the homemaker, it counts for nothing that the guy is working his tail off, providing food, shelter, clothing, etc to his wife during the marriage? All that money he brings in to the house for you to share doesn't register on the scale? I don't know of any decent married man who'll put their life savings in a car--once married, they try to save up for a home, retirement, emergencies and children--something the wife also greatly benefits from. You may be cleaning his house and cooking his food, but he'll be providing for you so that you do have a house to clean and food to cook--many people around the world don't even have that. Isn't his working and providing considered the investment?

Of course, but don't you think it's his duty anyway? Why are men qawwamun then? I'm not saying you shouldn't appreciate all that, but why should you give up your right for mahr just because he's going to provide for you after marriage. He's supposed to provide for you. If he can afford to give you a bigger mahr, why ask for $20?

It's totally up to you. But I don't think it has anything to do with greed. Once a man is married, he will probably be more responsible and think twice before putting all his savings in a luxury car, but I was referring to single men who are more eager to get a car than to get a wife.

Also, large amounts of mahr are extremely hard to enforce in court. Unless you had a truly legalized Nikah, which most of us don't, you don't stand a chance (like the way it is with Islamic rules of inheritance--you still need a legal will in the US, regardless of whether you sign a paper stating you want your property divided Islamically after your death) Also, you don't have to choose between mahr and alimony. They can go hand in hand very easily--you can get your mahr AND alimony based on the length of marriage and other factors. Which is why I think in places like the US, you don't need a huge mahr--a turnoff for many guys and their families.

You're talking about the US. Not many of us live in the US, alhamdulillah. Women should be aware of their Islamic rights, regardless of where they live. You can adapt that to your life, society, culture ... etc., but being aware of facts is important.

At the end, it is your choice. No one should force you to ask for more or less. But all the women who want to ask for more (from men who can afford more) shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it. It's an Islamic right, and most sisters are worth every penny, if not more.

[PhDGirl]

Originally Posted by kamuzrana

make him take you on hajj

i so admire girls who ask for that for their mahr.

That's something that's required anyway though if you can afford it, so it's not really a gift, but an obligation.

[zzze]

assalamu alaykum

Ask for as much as you can...do NOT be nice to boys before you get married. Ask for a house (he's gotta get one anyway...just make sure he puts it in your name AFTER the payments are done) and any sum of money to be deferred and stipulate that you should receive it regardless of whoever (if ever ) requests the divorce. It's all nice to ask for him to learn tajweed or help you learn a surah but it isn't pratical and won't keep you going if you happen to separate.

- on the hajj thing - some people ask for hajj and/umrah to ensure that they have the option of going even if they separate...as the guy will have to pay her whatever it costs to go...

May Allah guide us all and ensure we don't marry bums. Ameen.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by zzze

assalamu alaykum

Ask for as much as you can...do NOT be nice to boys before you get married. Ask for a house (he's gotta get one anyway...just make sure he puts it in your name AFTER the payments are done)

Why? What do you mean, he's gotta get one anyway?

Originally Posted by zzze

and any sum of money to be deferred and stipulate that you should receive it regardless of whoever (if ever ) requests the divorce.

So sometimes if the woman requests the divorce, then the husband doesn't pay her the mahr that he owes?

Originally Posted by zzze

- on the hajj thing - some people ask for hajj and/umrah to ensure that they have the option of going even if they separate...as the guy will have to pay her whatever it costs to go...

So in that case, the woman will just go on Hajj alone (with another mahram or a group)?
But don't your own finances have to be secure before you can go on Hajj? Like, you can't be in debt and stuff.

Is it allowed to just go on Hajj, if the trip is a gift from somebody else?

[zzze]

assalamu alaykum

Well of course he does...where will they live? Unless he's going to rent I suppose.

Sometimes when the woman requests a divorce she has to pay the man back her mahr, or half of it..or whatever he requests..she may have to pay her way out. (depends on the guy, his bitterness, extent of woman's desire to be free etc) here's a sad documentary on divorce in iran...i'll try and find it insha Allah.

Yeah, I don't know what he case is for the other madhabs, but in the shafi it's permissable for for a woman to travel in a group. Insha Allah if a woman was supported properly by her husband during marriage she wouoldn't have any debts of her own...and as far as I know if you have a payment plan for debts you're permitted to go on hajj, I'm sure someone else knows better.

I've heard that if someone gets their hajj payed for them but then in the future are in a position to afford the pilgrimage then they're obliged to perform it again...so many women get their husbands to give them the money for hajj and then sort it out. Has anyone else heard of this? Another thing to look up...

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by zzze

assalamu alaykum

Well of course he does...where will they live? Unless he's going to rent I suppose.

Well, lots of people rent, especially when starting out (or for their whole lives if they don't believe in owning homes, 'cause of the mortage issue and whatnot). Or they'll live with his family sometimes, 'cause of cultural reasons, family tradition, whatever.

But if they own their own home, then why does it matter whose name it's in? I mean, if they get divorced, legally in a Western system, they'd have to split their assets, no?

Originally Posted by zzze

Sometimes when the woman requests a divorce she has to pay the man back her mahr, or half of it..or whatever he requests..she may have to pay her way out. (depends on the guy, his bitterness, extent of woman's desire to be free etc) here's a sad documentary on divorce in iran...i'll try and find it insha Allah.

Is that Islamic?
And if it is, then how can you just get through it merely by stipulating that if you request a divorce, you still get the delayed mahr?

Originally Posted by zzze

Yeah, I don't know what he case is for the other madhabs, but in the shafi it's permissable for for a woman to travel in a group. Insha Allah if a woman was supported properly by her husband during marriage she wouoldn't have any debts of her own...and as far as I know if you have a payment plan for debts you're permitted to go on hajj, I'm sure someone else knows better.

I've heard that if someone gets their hajj payed for them but then in the future are in a position to afford the pilgrimage then they're obliged to perform it again...so many women get their husbands to give them the money for hajj and then sort it out. Has anyone else heard of this? Another thing to look up...

Cool. Makes sense.

[kamuzrana]

Originally Posted by PhDGirl

That's something that's required anyway though if you can afford it, so it's not really a gift, but an obligation.

actually shaikh yasir birjas says in fiqh of love course that men are NOT responsible for taking their wives on hajj. only their parents.

a woman's son's are responsible to pay her way to hajj. or of course she can pay for herself.

but a man taking his wife is not obligatory but a kindness.

but if u make it mahr, it IS obligatory.


but i don't know if scholars differ on this opinion. allahu alim.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by kamuzrana

actually shaikh yasir birjas says in fiqh of love course that men are NOT responsible for taking their wives on hajj. only their parents.

a woman's son's are responsible to pay her way to hajj. or of course she can pay for herself.

but a man taking his wife is not obligatory but a kindness.

but if u make it mahr, it IS obligatory.


but i don't know if scholars differ on this opinion. allahu alim.

I hope I'm wrong, but it seems like this shaikh is trying to find an easy way out for himself and other men. Your pre-marriage guardian is your father, and of course he is responsible for paying for your hajj if you're unmarried. Once you're married, your husband becomes your legal guardian, and all responsibilities that the father undertook as a guardian automatically shifts to the husband. Now it sounds really ridiculous to say that the son has to take his mother to hajj, but not her husband, who is her legal guardian, isn't it?

[kamuzrana]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I hope I'm wrong, but it seems like this shaikh is trying to find an easy way out for himself and other men. Your pre-marriage guardian is your father, and of course he is responsible for paying for your hajj if you're unmarried. Once you're married, your husband becomes your legal guardian, and all responsibilities that the father undertook as a guardian automatically shifts to the husband. Now it sounds really ridiculous to say that the son has to take his mother to hajj, but not her husband, who is her legal guardian, isn't it?

i would agree with your reasoning.

however this is what he said in this course, so i would recommend ppl to look it up b/c i only know what he has said. inshallah i will also try to find out the truth.

but i doubt the shaikh was trying to get out of his responsibility. most of the course is all about how men need to treat women better and give them their rights and buy them flowers.

but either way i don't know if i've heard of an instance when a husband denied a wife hajj and went himself. at least not in my community. most men usually can't function without their wives, esp if they are older when they go to hajj.

[kamuzrana]

found these, of course they don't cover all mathabs maybe. don't know. but worth checking out of anyone's interested.

Performing Hajj on Behalf of the Deceased

Islam Questions and Answers.: Questions And ... - Google Book Search

but then islamonline with sh. ahmed kutty stated that a husband must accompany his wife on hajj, but he doesn't specify pay for it. so idk. (lost the link for this one.)

allahu alim.

again i don't know many men who be mean spirited enough to deny their wives. and the second link mentions it is mustahab to take them to hajj.

[kellyjaz]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Also, misyaar marriages are uncommon in the Gulf, except in Saudi Arabia. That's just the non-Shia version of mut3ah. Those who engage in it are not young, single men. They're usually married men, who want to take another wife.

.

Misyar is a permenant marriage [ Where a man does not have to financially support the wife] whereas mut3a is temporary and mut3a is a marriage with the intention of divorce. [ ya3ne zawaj beh niyaat talaq]


[ My beard brings all teh ladies to ma mommas yard]

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by kellyjaz

Misyar is a permenant marriage [ Where a man does not have to financially support the wife] whereas mut3a is temporary and mut3a is a marriage with the intention of divorce. [ ya3ne zawaj beh niyaat talaq]


[ My beard brings all teh ladies to ma mommas yard]

Fahma 3alaich, but just like misyaar, where a man is not expect to provide financially, and basically enjoy the company of a woman for free, mut3ah is just really about that. Someone getting into mut3ah can make the niyyah to divorce the same day. It's like paying a prostitute for her services, except with a few paperwork involved.

[PhDGirl]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I hope I'm wrong, but it seems like this shaikh is trying to find an easy way out for himself and other men. Your pre-marriage guardian is your father, and of course he is responsible for paying for your hajj if you're unmarried. Once you're married, your husband becomes your legal guardian, and all responsibilities that the father undertook as a guardian automatically shifts to the husband. Now it sounds really ridiculous to say that the son has to take his mother to hajj, but not her husband, who is her legal guardian, isn't it?

Yeah I think there are differing opinions on that. So if a woman doesn't work and can't pay her own way and only has daughters, then nobody is obligated to take her for hajj? That doesn't seem right.