[PhDGirl]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

I am not making a "sexist joke". I am asking you a serious question. Do you think that marriage is between two people of an equal degree without one being the leader of the other, without one excelling over the other?

Not you - Jamroll. I know you're being serious.

I think that in marriage, people have domains and you cede control for those areas. What the areas are depends. As for big decisions (like where to live or something), I really don't think that it's a good idea for one person to declare "We are moving to X" and expect the other person to willingly follow and then have a harmonious existence (obviously a situation like match where there isn't much of a choice is different because you don't get to pick either).

I think you guys have this idea that women "back home" are all submissive and the ones raised in the West are not. That's not really true - there's a mix of people in both places.

[displaced]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

And the analogy I'd go with is not an attending vs intern, but rather a benevolent king married to a princess.

really? what are your "kingly" qualities?

let me preface what I'm about to say with this: I don't think a marriage can be 50-50 and am alright with conceding to my husband not because I have to but because each person in a marriage has to compromise for the sake of the comfort of their spouse.

however, I think it's interesting (to put it nicely) that a man assumes he should have an obedient wife. plenty of men are idiots and plenty of women are smarter. does having a penis automatically make you worthy of respect? absolutely not. you, jaysh, are arrogant and your personality doesn't command respect yet you expect it as your birthright.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Jam, how could be a disobedient wife be superior to an obedient one?

Because it depends on how we define "disobedient". Rather we should talk about the expectations gap.

A girl from back home is going to have a certain mindset. She is going to know what is expected of her in a traditional desi way. If we are expecting our wife to be aware of and accepting of the "tor tareekeh" of desi culture, then this will be favourable to us.
A girl raised over here is likely to be more independent minded. She will not need to be "looked after" as much, you won't have to make every decision for her. Some people would find this more favourable. Also, she is likely to have more in common with you culturally.

It depends on what you're looking for. From what you're saying you're looking for and expecting, I think PhDGirl's suggestion is a good one. Or you could pick a girl who is from the West but is from a lower economic background, or lower level of education than yourself. A well educated woman raised in the West who makes good money from a job, doesn't need a "husband" in the traditional way we might understand a husband. They need and want a companion. So the new husband role changes from provider and law giver, to companion.

You have to decide what you are looking for, and what you are willing to give.

[Salika]

I wrote my nikkah agreement (hubz asked me to) and it was kind of prenupish but I saw it purely as legal and devoided any emotion. My in-laws kind of took it the wrong way though. Alhamdulillah I probably won't need it though but I figured better safe than sorry. I encouraged him to put whatever he wanted but he didn't

Anyways, husband and wife are not equal in the marriage, but there should be equity. Neither is inherently superior or inferior than the other.

Jaysh
It's a bad idea to view marriage is one of obedience-disobedience. I think once you put a woman in that mindset, she'll actually be more likely to "rebel."

[IbnMardhiyah]

For me personally, no.

I'm in sales, so no need for a pre-nup.

[infamousbrown]

I like the idea of something with a sunset clause.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

I'm in sales, so no need for a pre-nup.

I'm sorry, but reall did make me becuase when you say "I'm in sales" I got this mental picture of you putting an add out to sell your wife if they ever did something aweful.

As for the obedient thing. I wonder if people are reading obedient, and thinking subsurvient. In Islam, women are still allowed to not "obey" their husbands if he asks something outrageous. If she just does everything her husband asks, regardless of what it is, that's being subsurvient, and I think that's wrong. People shouldn't be subsurvient to eachother. Maybe we all just have different ideas of what obedience entails. To clear this up, what does it mean to be obedient exactly?

[heba]

jaysh, God help the woman who marries you. really, thats like a sincere duaa. poor poor girl

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by heba

jaysh, God help the woman who marries you. really, thats like a sincere duaa. poor poor girl

I knew a guy who used to say the same crap about the girl he would marry. Then he got married and did a complete 180. He was totally under her foot! I wonder if the same thing will happen if Jaysh ever gets married, one can hope right?

[new_muslimah]

If you love someone, don't you naturally want to please them? Doesn't their happiness automatically become important to you? Its not a dictatorship in which absolute obedience is demanded. I would do anything that is within the bounds of Islam to please those I love, I am automatically in their service, by virtue of the fact that I love them.

My father will probably want anyone I marry to sign a pre-nup

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

I'm sorry, but reall did make me becuase when you say "I'm in sales" I got this mental picture of you putting an add out to sell your wife if they ever did something aweful.

hahahaha

no, what I meant was several things all in one:

1) Being in sales means being able to successfully, and in a timely manner, reach a deal or compromise on a two-way street that's mutually acceptable to both parties. In marriage,of course there are a lot of compromises you may have to make, but I'm going to make sure I do my due diligence before marriage to make sure she won't potentially demand something from me along the way that would cross a red line and force me to compromise on something that may potentially lead to separation or divorce.

It also means that yeah you know, she may have her charms to get whatever she wants, but I have mine too. I know how to sell an idea or concept, a product or service, [I do it day in, day out] and if in case during our marital life we run into a roadblock, you can sure as hell be certain that I'll be selling my side of the story to her in order to prevent that roadblock from turning into a deal-breaking situation.

DISCLAIMER: All you haters who think I'll be treating marriage like a business transaction, kindly STFU and keep it to yourself losers.

2) It also reflects the attitude I have on life - cautious optimism. No one survives in sales if they have a pessimistic outlook - they'd just double-over and die in a week. To me, a pre-nup just sends a bad message from the very beginning of the marriage, it puts a bit of tension into the relationship that I personally would rather not have. Its kinda like saying: "This pre-nup means I have eyes on the back of my head, so you can't stab me in the back or screw me over." ,........ uhhh, hello? I married you because I loved you for all that you are, why would I wanna screw you over? I'm very easy-going and tolerating of a lot of bad habits, yet at the same time I'd be there to raise her up every time she trips or falls, no doubt.

I'm desi, maybe that has something to do with it - we hate divorces and we hate divorces even more when there's kids in the picture. I'd work real hard to make sure the girl I was marrying was right for me in the first place, that we had discussed the potential risks and trouble spots beforehand, so that if things ever got so ugly, we had mostly anticipated them in advance and were mentally prepared to work them out. And again, I'm in sales and its my job to convince people if I have sufficient vested interest in doing so. One of the things that we do when discussing partnerships, arrangements, or even before signing contracts, is risk management. We talk about all the What Ifs, so that everyone can make a proper decision before putting pen to paper. But business is business, and marriage is not.

3) Of course the possibility [and not probability] exists that things could end really badly and we split. In that case I'd rather remember her for all the good things I know about her as per nabeyuna Muhammad's statement advising us "not to hate any believing woman because if we dislike something in her, there are still many other things that are good in her" [paraphrased and translated] - and because of that I'd give her the lion's share [pun not intended] of what I have at that time to make sure she's well off and then again - because I'm in sales - and account executives who have established track records are always in demand whether the economy is going up or down; I'd just go out and work hard to reestablish myself financially, bi'idhnellah.

Alhamdulillaah we'd have an amicable parting.

Money [and everything you can buy with it] is transient, and so is this life. If things ever got so bad and she wanted to leave and there was no way I could make her stay, then I'd sit down and give her a very comfortable package. Even if she wanted the house we were living in, I'm the kinda guy who'd probably even shrug and say "sure baby, its yours" - because BIG WOOP I can easily go out and work and get another house. I have absolute confidence in myself and in Allah's Mercy that I'll be able to do that.

I'm a blue personality and I'd rather just be nice and generous if it all came down to a split and leave on good terms rather than having to deal with the bitter acrimony of having to enforce the prenup and maintain a facade.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

[color=Red]
DISCLAIMER: All you haters who think I'll be treating marriage like a business transaction, kindly STFU and keep it to yourself losers.
[size=1]

Good post. As to that phrase ^ I personally don't see what's wrong with treating marriage like a business transaction (at least initially) becuase if you treat it seriously like that, knowing all the risks and benefits involved with marrying a person, you're likely to make a good and informed decision. I don't like the modern American way of

"Oh, we're in love, it doesn't matter that he's a meth addict, and I'm a crazy paranoid jealous woman who will seriously injure any woman he ever looks at, even supermarket clerks, we LOVE eachother, LOVE fixes all, so we're gunna get married anyway and I'm gunna have lots of babies!"

Marriage is serious business!

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Marriage is serious business!

For the divorce lawyers, yeah for sure.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

DISCLAIMER: All you haters who think I'll be treating marriage like a business transaction, kindly STFU and keep it to yourself losers.

omg what is the matter with you?! You're treating marriage like a business transaction!!!