The Dating Dialogues

[caffienetime]

Jaysh said

At least one person in this thread posted something pretty hypocritical, lol. My bull crap detector went off.

people change. and even if they dont, if they feel guilty about something they did in the past or are even doing presently and are continuously repenting for it, it is none of your business. stop trying to get in the middle of Allah and his creation and stop trying to judge others.

[zzze]

assalamu alaykum

I'm with shadha with one thing in particular: if you go out with a guy/girl (in public hopefully) then it's a date, why try to make out it isn't what it is?

As for the rest, people can do what they want, don't care.

Mossad: You've clearly not been reading the thread properly!

[ChotooMotoo]

Jaysh said

Perhaps it is just best to go the arranged marriage route? Since the parents will match for age, education, religiosity, ethnicity, family, background, economic status, etc. This all will result in a higher likelihood of compatibility in the modern world. I agree with Dr. Thuraya (from the Doha Debates) on this issue: we youth should be real...we only go for a person of the opposite gender for looks. The first cut is made on looks alone. Universities make the first cut based on SAT scores. We make it on looks. Only after that first cut do we look into the other factors, like personality, religiosity, character, morals, humor, education, etc.

Honestly, 99% of the guys I've met who do arranged marriages made their cut based on looks alone. If the girl wasn't thin and pretty, it didn't matter how educated, kind, religious, good family etc etc etc, he wasn't interested.

Also, I didn't see anyone answer my question about a "halal" date.

[shadha]

Jaysh: Agreed. But does a girl really get to know a guy's true self whilst he is trying to impress her? Which is the case during the courting routine. Everything changes after marriage. Many couples who were perfect before marriage fall apart right after moving in together, paying bills, etc.

Agreed that people put on a mask at first but with time that soon fades [it was mentioned in the article, to take one's time. To me, this is crucial]. That's why I said, being alone with that person gives you the opportunity to face situations or conversations that otherwise would have never taken place. I personally love asking the 'what if' questions or I would purposely say or do something, just to see how the guy would react.

Jaysh: This is how I did it with the two "pre-fiances" (lol) I have had, i.e. meetings in public places. However, my issue (now) is that this might not be physical involvement, but it can result in intense emotional involvement.

Sure, but I feel that such involvement is a positive thing. You learn and grow from your experiences, the good and the bad.

Jaysh: But Allah [swt] is also swift in punishment. As for zinnah, Allah [swt] has severely threatened the Muslims about this.

Neither of us can speak on the behalf of Allah, swt, but I'm pretty confident in saying that Allah, swt, is the Most Gracious and the Most Merciful. Even according to your beliefs, I don't recall fornication being one of the sins Allah, swt, won't forgive. I just got home from work and I'm rushing back out to my next, so I don't have the time to really look through the books, so correct me if I'm wrong on that.

MC, I divorced him back in Jan.


shadha-

[SheikYerbouti]

I went on a date with a girl and I thought it might end well or that at least she might ask me for a second date but when she got up to go to the bathroom I reached across the table to get something and accidentally touched her butt she had a nice butt too the girl dumped her spaghetti on my head and would not return my calls I was sad

[Timbit]

zzze said

I'm with shadha with one thing in particular: if you go out with a guy/girl (in public hopefully) then it's a date, why try to make out it isn't what it is?

yeah, that was my whole point too. except i think to call it a date, there has to be some kind of romantic intent there.

i actually think hanging out with somebody in a group tells you more about them than just seeing them alone all the time. so, yeah, double dates for the win?

still, you are never going to know somebody all that well before you share some living space together, no matter how long you go out with them.

[Jaysh]

Shadha said

Neither of us can speak on the behalf of Allah, swt, but I'm pretty confident in saying that Allah, swt, is the Most Gracious and the Most Merciful.

He is the Most Gracious and Most Merciful, and at the same time He is swift to call to account and punish.

Even according to your beliefs, I don't recall fornication being one of the sins Allah, swt, won't forgive.

Sister, you are right: Allah [swt] will forgive a person, but only if they sincerely repent with the intention of never returning to the sin again. Anyways, I agree with much of your initial post, but I just wanted to mention the flip side, namely that we shouldn't trivialize sin. I did, however, very much appreciate how you mentioned in your initial post that a relationship of any sexual nature is off limits. May Allah [swt] reward you.

Timbit said

was that really necessary?
i mean, maybe it's true, but why do you have to point it out? maybe the person you're talking about has changed and/or repented. or whatever.

Cmon, I didn't mention the person's name. Anyways, the reason I said it was that when I started university, I listened to a lot of older MSA peeps condemning the 'liberals' for dating. But over the next couple years, I realized each and every single one of the MSA guys I knew had an "affair" (fob term) going on, on the DL.

I think we need to at least recognize the problem that exists. It is on a monumental scale. I just think the sanctimonious condemnation will not get us very far, since people eventually see the hypocrisy. It's like Republican senators condemning the Democrats for promiscuity and then getting caught red-handed in Argentina.

afrakabob said

and the same goes for when it comes to being interested in someone (non-platonically). obviously physical attraction is a factor , but i don't make it my first priority because i've found that most people i find very physically attractive turn out to have very ugly personalities.

I think Dr. Thuraya, the sociologist who debated in the Doha Debates, got it right when she responded to a similar argument brought forth by one of the girls in the audience. That girl had protested Dr. Thuraya's claim that the youth go primarily for looks, and she said: "I go for good personality and humor" (or something along those lines).

Dr. Thuraya replied that she knows that a lot of times the youth don't actually say to themselves "I am going for so-and-so because of his looks", but instead they convince themselves that there are other reasons, such as his "amazing" personality. It's a subconcious thing. For example, if a good looking guy makes the same jokes as a fat bald guy, then the girl will think that the good looking guy is "just soooo funny", whereas she won't think that of the fat bald guy. Again, it's done on the subconcious level.

And the same is true for men towards women. As the saying goes: nothing makes your personality shine through like a nice.....bum-bum.

Anyways, I'll admit that I have a slight bias going in, since I trust the decision of my parents 110%, more than I trust my own ability in this regard. I guess I have just realized that my parents are wayyy wiser than I am, and I trust their opinion. People often joke that they won't even let their parents pick their car, so how could they let them pick their wives? Well, I would even seek my parents' opinion on what car to buy. I realize that other people on this forum may not have the same luxury of sane parents. Some might have very unreasonable parents, and that would certainly cause huge problems. My parents never gave me problems when it came to marriage, and have been exceptionally cool about it, always trying to work with me on the issue. Only once did they put their foot down completely, and that is something that I owe my life to them for, since I would have thrown myself into the fire had they not stopped me.

I just think parents in general are wise, and mine are exceptionally so (at least I think so!). I realize that exceptions may abound, but oftentimes I think that the child thinks his parents are wrong, insane, irrational, etc. when in fact the child just lacks maturity at this point in time. In ten years, the child will grow up and would most likely thank his parents.

Fi Aman Allah

[MossadConspiracy]

shadha said

MC, I divorced him back in Jan.

oh sorry to hear that

ws

[Timbit]

Jaysh said

Cmon, I didn't mention the person's name. Anyways, the reason I said it was that when I started university, I listened to a lot of older MSA peeps condemning the 'liberals' for dating. But over the next couple years, I realized each and every single one of the MSA guys I knew had an "affair" (fob term) going on, on the DL.

regardless...

1. there weren't a lot of people who posted here then, so it really wouldn't be that hard to figure out who you were talking about.

2. you're still saying somebody's a hypocrite and you don't know that, 'cause again, they could've repented. in fact, we should probably think that they have.

and yeah, i think we should stop condemning people for dating.
dating does not equal zina.

[Jaysh]

Timbit said

regardless...

1. there weren't a lot of people who posted here then, so it really wouldn't be that hard to figure out who you were talking about.

2. you're still saying somebody's a hypocrite and you don't know that, 'cause again, they could've repented. in fact, we should probably think that they have.

OK, you are right. Thanks for the correction. Apologies to the forum and that member in particular.

Fi Aman Allah