The Dating Dialogues

[ChotooMotoo]

what can you do on a halal date?

[Variable]

ChotooMotoo said

what can you do on a halal date?

I think you hang out and talk about stuff. But you don't touch...

[caffienetime]

i donno...maybe i have a backward mentality or something but anything that has a bad connotation is bad to me. i dont like creating loop holes to justify and make it better. if you are going on a date with someone, then he or she is like a bf/gf to you. are you saying having a boyfriend or a girlfriend is halaal? if it is why cant you go to prom or whatever with them as well? before the Prophet recieved his prophethood, he was invited to a party where there was dancing, drinking and a lot of bad things going on. He went out of curiosity and to protect him, Allah (swt) made him fall asleep as soon as he got there and he got up after all the haraam things were over. doesnt that make you think that there might be a reason that Allah (swt) did that? bad surroundings will always have a bad influence on a person...and i just lost my train of thought and where i was going with this......

but the point is, i dont think its right to go on a date. if there is a wali supervising the meeting, then it is not a date. a date is being alone with that special someone or whatever. you cant call talking to someone you want to marry a date because it is a meeting, not a date. you cant go to amusement parks and sit on roller coasters with them to see how loudly they scream because you want to make sure they wont yell at you that loudly when they are angry or whatever...i mean i guess you can use that as an excuse but that is a lame one. if you want to know if you are suitable with a person, you dont have to know each and every aspect of them to know that they are suitable for you or not. not knowing the other person fully just adds to the excitement of marriage and there will never be a person who is perfect you will ALWAYS have to comprimise. so might as well keep yourself clean for ONE person.

when i was little, we did this activity in class where the teacher divided all of us into two groups (my school wasnt coed) one half would pretend to be guys and one half would pretend to be girls. the girls were given a heart shaped piece of paper and the guys were supposed to flirt with the girls. if the girls liked the guys, they would have to rip apart a small piece of that heart and give it to the guy. at the end of the activity the teacher told us the amount of heart we had left, would be the amount of love we would have left for our husbands if we dated to the extent we did in that activity. if you think about it, this does make sense, because the more people you date, the more people of the opposite gender you hang out with, they more examples yuo have to compare your husband to. true there might be some good qualities in your husband compared to the others, but you will see the bad qualities as well in him that you wouldnt see in other guys because you didnt live with those guys to the extent you live with your husband.

i think this is my longest post on islamica. sorry i hate writing essays and this one is probably confusing as well. i apologize.

[wheelworks]

Variable said

I think you hang out and talk about stuff. But you don't touch...

And you can't be alone.

[Jaysh]

Timbit said

anyway, i think if you're gonna date (and pretty much all the muslims i know do), then just call it what it is. i have friends who do stupidass things like say "it wasn't a date!" in response to the question "how was your hot date?" they'll be like "well, yeah, i saw her and we went for dinner and caught a play and then had a long walk by the lake and i gave her a present and she loved it." how is that not a date?!

Interestingly, a Muslim website asked me to write a rebuttal of this article. I had to decline due to having blood on my hands, lol. But seriously, it's not a date. "Date" just doesn't sound the same in Arabic; it just gives off a master/slave relationship, and that's not how I perceive it. I'm not saying you're wrong...that's just how I see it.

I remember in college how my friend used to ask me "how's your girlfriend", and I used to get soooo ticked off at him for asking that. I'd be like "she's not my gf; she's my fiance." He bet a million bucks that I wouldn't end up marrying her; I am now in debt a million bucks.

I think the article just articulated what all of us already knew; but the difference is that we kind of knew in the back of our minds that it's shady. But the article seems to be saying it's a great new thing that should be embraced. I much rather prefer it being underground and unacknowledged. Actually I think we need to have brainstorming sessions with scholars, elders, the youth, etc. and try to find out solutions to this great big problem.

Also, the article seems to say that we NEED to date multiple people before we know who to marry, which I disagree with. Anyways, like always I am issuing a verdict on the article even though I've barely read it.

May Allah [swt] forgive our sins.

[jinnzaman]

If you can't control your nafs before marriage enough to follow the Shari'ah, chances are you won't control it after marriage and when that happens, you have no one else to blame but yourself if you or your husband pursue your nafs.

More importantly, even if the marriage is a "success" in the dunya, if it contravenes the Shari'ah, it will be a failure in the akhirah as success is defined by pleasing Allah (subhana wa ta'ala).

[shadha]

caffienetime: but the point is, i dont think its right to go on a date. if there is a wali supervising the meeting, then it is not a date. a date is being alone with that special someone or whatever. you cant call talking to someone you want to marry a date because it is a meeting, not a date. you cant go to amusement parks and sit on roller coasters with them to see how loudly they scream because you want to make sure they wont yell at you that loudly when they are angry or whatever...i mean i guess you can use that as an excuse but that is a lame one. if you want to know if you are suitable with a person, you dont have to know each and every aspect of them to know that they are suitable for you or not. not knowing the other person fully just adds to the excitement of marriage and there will never be a person who is perfect you will ALWAYS have to comprimise. so might as well keep yourself clean for ONE person.

I couldn't disagree more.

And here's why.

I think not knowing the person fully is the furthest thing next to 'exciting'. You don't get to know the person and how they really are when the wali is sitting there giving the stink eye or when you constantly have a dozen or so relatives bustling about all up in earshot of your conversation. It's no surprise that most will be on their best behavior while their under the microscope of others.

I made that mistake and it will certainly not be one that I make again. I already told my parents that I tried to play by their B.C. dating rules and it failed miserably. Never again. Having the chance to be alone but in public with someone makes all the difference. You get to know how that person truly is. You get to know how they will react to certain situations or conversations. I see absolutely nothing wrong with going to an amusement park or going on a picnic or going out shopping or out to eat. You're not really alone because you have hundreds of sets of eyes on you and if you stay within your community, you never really know whose watching you and reporting back. So, you're more likely to keep the touchy-feely business to a minimum if not non-existent. For the people in the community who take issue with you being out and 'alone' with the person, boo hoo. If anything, I'd make it know to most community members how I go about dating so that when they do see me in public with a guy it won't be a shock and awe.

And it's pretty naive to think that if you go out on a date to an amusement park or on a picnic or whatever, you'll become unclean. If you feel yourself getting closer and closer to doing the big bang, then it might be a good idea to start going on double-dates with friends. It also gives you an awesome look on how your date is with your friends. Your friends who should know you really well might be able to give you some insight on your date. Perhaps point out some red flags you may have missed or say to you that it's a great match and to go for it or be able to help you in the future with relationship dilemmas etc..

Now, if you are dating a person and taking it to a sneaky sexual level, then yeah there's a problem. If you're having to be ducking and diving telling lies of your whereabouts to cover your sexual escapades, then that's deception. If you can lie with the person, you can lie to the person. If you can do wrong with the person, you can do wrong to the person. It's never good to start a relationship based off lies and deception. What goes around, comes around. Of course, I'm not saying that every relationship that had some sort of pre-marital sexual experience is filled with lies and deception. No. We're human, we have temptations, some hard to resist and some we cave in on. Allahu Alim. Allah is the Most Kind and Merciful. But you have to sit back and look at the sneaky situation. What does it say of the person whose willing to continue to go the extra nine yards to deceive and lie? Just get married. The only time where I sympathize and understand the ducking and diving is when the parents refuse to allow a marriage to take place.

In the end, it's really just between you and God.


shadha-

[Jaysh]

At least one person in this thread posted something pretty hypocritical, lol. My bull crap detector went off.

[Jaysh]

Sister Shadha, you bring up some good points. I am not negating everything you said, but just want to give some feedback, insha-Allah.

shadha said

You don't get to know the person and how they really are when the wali is sitting there giving the stink eye

Agreed. But does a girl really get to know a guy's true self whilst he is trying to impress her? Which is the case during the courting routine. Everything changes after marriage. Many couples who were perfect before marriage fall apart right after moving in together, paying bills, etc.

It's no surprise that most will be on their best behavior while their under the microscope of others.

Agreed. But won't a guy be on his best behavior whilst he tries to woo the girl? And vice/versa?

Perhaps it is just best to go the arranged marriage route? Since the parents will match for age, education, religiosity, ethnicity, family, background, economic status, etc. This all will result in a higher likelihood of compatibility in the modern world. I agree with Dr. Thuraya (from the Doha Debates) on this issue: we youth should be real...we only go for a person of the opposite gender for looks. The first cut is made on looks alone. Universities make the first cut based on SAT scores. We make it on looks. Only after that first cut do we look into the other factors, like personality, religiosity, character, morals, humor, education, etc.

Meanwhile, when parents search for you, the first cut is made on all the other things, not looks. Then they pass it off to you, and you get to then make cuts based on looks.

What usually happens when the first cut is looks is that you then tend to compromise on other factors, since all of them being present in the person is rare.

I made that mistake and it will certainly not be one that I make again. I already told my parents that I tried to play by their B.C. dating rules and it failed miserably. Never again. Having the chance to be alone but in public with someone makes all the difference. You get to know how that person truly is. You get to know how they will react to certain situations or conversations. I see absolutely nothing wrong with going to an amusement park or going on a picnic or going out shopping or out to eat. You're not really alone because you have hundreds of sets of eyes on you and if you stay within your community, you never really know whose watching you and reporting back. So, you're more likely to keep the touchy-feely business to a minimum if not non-existent. For the people in the community who take issue with you being out and 'alone' with the person, boo hoo. If anything, I'd make it know to most community members how I go about dating so that when they do see me in public with a guy it won't be a shock and awe.

This is how I did it with the two "pre-fiances" (lol) I have had, i.e. meetings in public places. However, my issue (now) is that this might not be physical involvement, but it can result in intense emotional involvement.

No. We're human, we have temptations, some hard to resist and some we cave in on. Allahu Alim. Allah is the Most Kind and Merciful.

But Allah [swt] is also swift in punishment. As for zinnah, Allah [swt] has severely threatened the Muslims about this.

The only time where I sympathize and understand the ducking and diving is when the parents refuse to allow a marriage to take place.

The issue is that this is soooo common. Two people get together, thinking they'll get expressed marriage, but the parents refuse. It happens more often than not. Rare is the situation where the parents on both sides readily agree. So MOST times finding a girl on one's own will result in huge lag time before marriage, and thus more shadiness.

Fi Aman Allah

[MossadConspiracy]

shadha said

caffienetime: but the point is, i dont think its right to go on a date. if there is a wali supervising the meeting, then it is not a date. a date is being alone with that special someone or whatever. you cant call talking to someone you want to marry a date because it is a meeting, not a date. you cant go to amusement parks and sit on roller coasters with them to see how loudly they scream because you want to make sure they wont yell at you that loudly when they are angry or whatever...i mean i guess you can use that as an excuse but that is a lame one. if you want to know if you are suitable with a person, you dont have to know each and every aspect of them to know that they are suitable for you or not. not knowing the other person fully just adds to the excitement of marriage and there will never be a person who is perfect you will ALWAYS have to comprimise. so might as well keep yourself clean for ONE person.

I couldn't disagree more.

And here's why.

I think not knowing the person fully is the furthest thing next to 'exciting'. You don't get to know the person and how they really are when the wali is sitting there giving the stink eye or when you constantly have a dozen or so relatives bustling about all up in earshot of your conversation. It's no surprise that most will be on their best behavior while their under the microscope of others.

I made that mistake and it will certainly not be one that I make again. I already told my parents that I tried to play by their B.C. dating rules and it failed miserably. Never again. Having the chance to be alone but in public with someone makes all the difference. You get to know how that person truly is. You get to know how they will react to certain situations or conversations. I see absolutely nothing wrong with going to an amusement park or going on a picnic or going out shopping or out to eat. You're not really alone because you have hundreds of sets of eyes on you and if you stay within your community, you never really know whose watching you and reporting back. So, you're more likely to keep the touchy-feely business to a minimum if not non-existent. For the people in the community who take issue with you being out and 'alone' with the person, boo hoo. If anything, I'd make it know to most community members how I go about dating so that when they do see me in public with a guy it won't be a shock and awe.

And it's pretty naive to think that if you go out on a date to an amusement park or on a picnic or whatever, you'll become unclean. If you feel yourself getting closer and closer to doing the big bang, then it might be a good idea to start going on double-dates with friends. It also gives you an awesome look on how your date is with your friends. Your friends who should know you really well might be able to give you some insight on your date. Perhaps point out some red flags you may have missed or say to you that it's a great match and to go for it or be able to help you in the future with relationship dilemmas etc..

Now, if you are dating a person and taking it to a sneaky sexual level, then yeah there's a problem. If you're having to be ducking and diving telling lies of your whereabouts to cover your sexual escapades, then that's deception. If you can lie with the person, you can lie to the person. If you can do wrong with the person, you can do wrong to the person. It's never good to start a relationship based off lies and deception. What goes around, comes around. Of course, I'm not saying that every relationship that had some sort of pre-marital sexual experience is filled with lies and deception. No. We're human, we have temptations, some hard to resist and some we cave in on. Allahu Alim. Allah is the Most Kind and Merciful. But you have to sit back and look at the sneaky situation. What does it say of the person whose willing to continue to go the extra nine yards to deceive and lie? Just get married. The only time where I sympathize and understand the ducking and diving is when the parents refuse to allow a marriage to take place.

In the end, it's really just between you and God.


shadha-

salam

this might be a dumb question but arent you married? for some reason i thought you were... i understand if the dating stuff is hypothetical or on an abstract level, but if you got married already who cares about how other people do it, right

[Timbit]

Jaysh said

At least one person in this thread posted something pretty hypocritical, lol. My bull crap detector went off.

was that really necessary?
i mean, maybe it's true, but why do you have to point it out? maybe the person you're talking about has changed and/or repented. or whatever.

[jinnzaman]

Even if one is skeptical of hadeeth, the explicit command of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) is clear:

'And come not even close to Zina. Indeed it is obscenity and a most evil way.' (Al-Isra’: 33)

No one can ignore that command and engage in explanations, but its clear that the interpretation of the ayah is with regards to avoiding it altogether for that which has a propensity to lead to something haram is itself haram.

And here is a reminder against our nafs:
The Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) said “Do you know what it is that makes most people enter the Fire?” The two empty ones: the private parts and the mouth. Do you know what it is that makes people enter the Garden? Taqwa of Allah and good character.” (Adab al-Mufrid)

The point of the Shari'ah is to create sound and pure hearts, not fulfill our base desires. These rulings exist for a reason and if one has trouble fulfilling it, it is a characteristic of the Hypocrites. The cure for nifaq is sincerity. If one sincerely seeks the pleasure of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) in this life and the next, they obey His ahkam.

The mark of the wali (saint) is their adherence to the Shari'ah. The mark of the hypocrites is their outward not matching their inward and ignoring explicit commands of the Shari'ah with alternative explanations with no basis from other texts other than their nafs.

[ChotooMotoo]

shadha said

You don't get to know the person and how they really are when the wali is sitting there giving the stink eye or when you constantly have a dozen or so relatives bustling about all up in earshot of your conversation. It's no surprise that most will be on their best behavior while their under the microscope of others.

But that's like, your whole marriage "back home" where you live with your in-laws (a plethora of them) cousins, uncles etc. constantly giving you the stink eye and
keeping track of your menstrual cycle etc

(the menstrual cycle thing is no joke either, one of my friends told me about her sister back home and everyone would announce it when she got her period as a way of announcing that she wasn't pregnant)

[afrakabob]

Jaysh said

But does a girl really get to know a guy's true self whilst he is trying to impress her? Which is the case during the courting routine. Everything changes after marriage. Many couples who were perfect before marriage fall apart right after moving in together, paying bills, etc.
But won't a guy be on his best behavior whilst he tries to woo the girl? And vice/versa?

this is always going to be an issue. even in platonic relationships, you make friends who seem great at first. but over time, you often learn things about them that cause you to respect them less and drift away from them. and what is marriage other than the ultimate lifelong friendship?

Jaysh said

Perhaps it is just best to go the arranged marriage route? Since the parents will match for age, education, religiosity, ethnicity, family, background, economic status, etc. This all will result in a higher likelihood of compatibility in the modern world.

think of it this way: you don't make friends with the people who your parents tell you to be friends with-- you choose friends for yourself. the longer you know your friends, the better you get to know them. and the more you come to understand if they are really worth your time, or if they are fair-weather friends.

take this example. i've known my best friend for almost 8 years. for the first 6 years that we were friends, both my parents and my sister hated her. they thought she was a bad muslim and a bad influence, and tried to prevent me from spending time with her. now they've gotten to know her better, and they all love her. my parents light up when she comes to visit, and mom hugs her every time.

at the same time, my parents would always try to push me to be friends with another muslim girl. this girl was extremely intelligent and came from a family of status so she impressed my parents a lot at dinner parties and such. but i knew her from school and knew that all her friends were the 'popular' crowd-- cheerleaders and football players-- and she acted just like them. she dressed like them too, short skirts and tight clothes-- and she simply wasn't that nice of a person. sometimes our parents would arrange for us to hang out, and i always hated it because our personalities weren't similar at all.

Jaysh said

we youth should be real...we only go for a person of the opposite gender for looks. The first cut is made on looks alone. Only after that first cut do we look into the other factors, like personality, religiosity, character, morals, humor, education, etc.

i'm sure this is true for some people, but it really depends on the person.
going back to the friendship example-- some people choose to surround themselves with a posse of attractive friends, whereas other people could care less what you look like.
i've had close friends in wheelchairs, others who were very overweight, and others who dressed in clothes that would have been dorky even in 1995. when it comes to friends, i am interested in personality and character, not in pretty faces or stylish clothes.

and the same goes for when it comes to being interested in someone (non-platonically). obviously physical attraction is a factor , but i don't make it my first priority because i've found that most people i find very physically attractive turn out to have very ugly personalities.

[wheelworks]

It's funny how ya'll are trying to find excuses on pushing the boundaries of Islamic Guidelines. It's there for a reason whether it makes sense to you or not. Also just because it does not make sense to you does not mean it's wrong. The guidelines of Islam are clearly defined such that it becomes obvious when you go out of it. Also if you choose to go out of the guidelines of Islam then you do so at your own peril. I also find it funny how you early 20 something year olds think you have the answer to everything and that your "common sense" is the bees knees and what not...

I agree with Jaysh btw.