[Bluestar]

it was seen as being deviant pre-1990's but prior to this century, it has been normalised before.

Also from the website you included in your post

But just because being gay isn’t a sexual deviency or disorder, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t come with its own set of stressful issues

[Revert]

Originally Posted by sak01

According to this website:


Western societies decision not to count it as a paraphilia any more is not based on scientific evidence. Most Muslims would consider it a sexual deviancy.

Well the less said about most Muslims the better eh? However I would be interested to see the Muslim Scientific/ Medical definitions of Sexual Disorders/dysfunctions/deviancy.

The Quran is clear on Homosexual acts, however i would like to see how Muslim medicine conciles itself with the INjunctions on this issue.

[sak01]

Originally Posted by Bluestar

it was seen as being deviant pre-1990's but prior to this century, it has been normalised before.

Also from the website you included in your post

Yes, it was normalised by the people of Lut(as).

Alcoholism comes with its own set of stressful issues too.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Ilikemyscarf

Basically anything that involves sexual drive, desire, or performance.

Anything that involves sexual desire etc is deviancy?

How do you know it is innate? They haven't found a gay gene. No studies have confirmed it. It's just a theory.

To say that because they haven't found a gay gene doesn't mean that there's no biological explanation for homosexuality. Some say that there is no such thing as God because there is no scientific proof...

Do you think people decide one day to be gay out of the blue?

Plus, I look at it a from a religious point of view. The people of Lut (as) were destroyed because they engaged in this sin, if it was innate, why would God destroy a people for something they were born with?

Excellent question indeed.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by sak01

Yes, it was normalised by the people of Lut(as).

There are civilizations that had never heard of Lut where homosexual behavior was seen as normal.

[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by sak01

Yes, it was normalised by the people of Lut(as).

Alcoholism comes with its own set of stressful issues too.

As Variable mentioned, there have been societies were single sex relationships are the norm. They're different to the people of Lut as well. One of the things that's striking about the story is that the people of Lut were knocking on the door wanting to have his new guest. Usually, gay people don't force themselves on other people

Alcoholism does come with it's own stressful issues, so does waking up in the morning.

[sak01]

Originally Posted by Variable

There are civilizations that had never heard of Lut where homosexual behavior was seen as normal.

So what's your point? The arabs before the coming of the Prophet(saw) considered infanticide normal. They would bury their new born daughter alive. It's just a fact.

Originally Posted by Bluestar

As Variable mentioned, there have been societies were single sex relationships are the norm. They're different to the people of Lut as well. One of the things that's striking about the story is that the people of Lut were knocking on the door wanting to have his new guest. Usually, gay people don't force themselves on other people

Alcoholism does come with it's own stressful issues, so does waking up in the morning.

So the fact that some civilisations considered it normal doesn't add anything to legitimise it or to not consider it a sexual deviancy. Same with the fact it might have stressful issues

And there are reformists today who are suggesting that the people of Lut(as) were destroyed because of their corruption in general not at all because they begun homosexuality. The Qur'an states otherwise.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by sak01

So what's your point? The arabs before the coming of the Prophet(saw) considered infanticide normal. They would bury their new born daughter alive. It's just a fact.

Well I guess I'd have to turn that around and ask what was your point? "The people of Lut normalized homosexuality"... I suppose that's pertinent because God punished them according to Jewish (and subsequently Christian and Islamic world view), and this I guess is were we get a precedent that homosexuality is sinful.

Well, that value came from a narrow slice of the world's population, and there have been plenty of other groups where homosexuality is seen as normal, and they didn't suffer 'punishment' any more or less than any other group in history.

[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by sak01

.
So the fact that some civilisations considered it normal doesn't add anything to legitimise it or to not consider it a sexual deviancy. Same with the fact it might have stressful issues

same goes with heterosexuality then?

And there are reformists today who are suggesting that the people of Lut(as) were destroyed because of their corruption in general not at all because they begun homosexuality. The Qur'an states otherwise.

And...I thought it was relevant that they were trying to force themselves on a being they thought was human. They didn't exactly come asking for a hand in marriage there's a difference methinks

[sak01]

Originally Posted by Bluestar

same goes with heterosexuality then?



And...I thought it was relevant that they were trying to force themselves on a being they thought was human. They didn't exactly come asking for a hand in marriage there's a difference methinks

Do you believe homosexual acts are haram in Islam?

[Bluestar]

:head banger: i think it's really difficult for some islamicans to understand that not everything has to be judged as right or wrong. I don't have an opinion of it. What i do believe is that God is Merciful and inshallah he will have mercy on those whose struggles are like both internal/external battles, with which a life of guilt is inevitable if they are Muslims. If they are not, it does not concern me, nor them. I'm sure they don't mind too much that it's considered 'haram' in a religion

[sak01]

Originally Posted by Variable

Well I guess I'd have to turn that around and ask what was your point? "The people of Lut normalized homosexuality"... I suppose that's pertinent because God punished them according to Jewish (and subsequently Christian and Islamic world view), and this I guess is were we get a precedent that homosexuality is sinful.

Well, that value came from a narrow slice of the world's population, and there have been plenty of other groups where homosexuality is seen as normal, and they didn't suffer 'punishment' any more or less than any other group in history.

Many different civilisations normalised many different sins. Some were punished collectively - the people of Lut, Noah, Hud (as) - many weren't. And you could just as well ask why isn't Western civilisation today being punished.

I don't see how asking this legitimises homosexuality.

Originally Posted by Bluestar

:head banger: i think it's really difficult for some islamicans to understand that not everything has to be judged as right or wrong. I don't have an opinion of it. What i do believe is that God is Merciful and inshallah he will have mercy on those whose struggles are like both internal/external battles, with which a life of guilt is inevitable if they are Muslims. If they are not, it does not concern me, nor them. I'm sure they don't mind too much that it's considered 'haram' in a religion

But do you believe that in Islam homosexuality is considered haram? In the same way that being bad to your parents, drinking alcohol, murder, not praying etc are haram.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Bluestar

:head banger: i think it's really difficult for some islamicans to understand that not everything has to be judged as right or wrong. I don't have an opinion of it. What i do believe is that God is Merciful and inshallah he will have mercy on those whose struggles are like both internal/external battles, with which a life of guilt is inevitable if they are Muslims. If they are not, it does not concern me, nor them. I'm sure they don't mind too much that it's considered 'haram' in a religion

Would you feel the same if someone you knew was an alckie or a druggie? Or a compulsive gambler?

I'd liek to think I have an attitude half way between yours and the "KILL THE GAYS" attitude.

[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by Revert

Would you feel the same if someone you knew was an alckie or a druggie? Or a compulsive gambler?

I'd liek to think I have an attitude half way between yours and the "KILL THE GAYS" attitude.

i don't see them as relevant analogies. Alkies/Druggies/gamblers usually hurt others by stealing from them or being abusive in their relationships due to stress. However, since i know alkies and druggies, i can safely say yes i would have that attitude. They know when it's time to get help and sort out their lives and it's better to leave them to it because they won't change if someone forces them into it. It won't help their rehabilitating process if they're repeatedly told it's evil. But yeah, i don't see similarities in gay people and alkies

if you're edging towards "Kill the gays", you may be the one who needs help!