[sally]

Originally Posted by Safia

I thought Ya Basta meant Ya Bastard...even then I didn't care...oh how my expectations have lowered .

Just for future I-told-you-so, don't flip the bird too much, your middle finger will get crooked. It's true, it happened to my cousin .

uh anyway , this is an interesting thread. I feel enlightened .

hahaha, you are adorable

[Pikey]

Originally Posted by dreamdeferred

Apparently some of you took offense to this avatar........It's understandable, no one likes to have a middle finger raised at them. Contrary to appearances though......this isn't an obscene gesture.

It's a symbol of resistance referred to as "Ya Basta"....a Spanish idiom loosely translated as... "Enough is Enough!". This symbol has been popularized (started?) by the Zapatista movement of Mexico. The gentleman in the pic is Subcommandante Marcos...leader of the revolutionary army.

Who are the Zapatistas and why should you care?

In the early 90's Francis Fukuyama proudly proclaimed "The End History".....he argued that human societies have reached a kind of evolutionary apex that proved the broad supremacy of liberal democracy and free market economics (I'm glossing over huge parts of his argument but that was the core of it). Meanwhile in Latin America, governments were busy applying an extreme form of neoliberal capitalism at the behest of the IMF and World Bank......one that was highly detrimental to vast majority of their populations. Indigenous communities especially were hard hit by sweeping reforms to land ownership and overall economic participation. Mexico was no different........the Zapatista movement, largely indigenous, arose to agitate against the prevailing system and secure their rights. This is a horrible introduction but I'm at work and can't put too much time into this.....

If you're interested...take a look at this book review which gives a more insightful background on the movement.

The Zapatistas' Struggle against "Free Trade"

The Zapatistas are inspiring to many of us who have serious concerns about "Free Trade" and globalization especially when seen in the context of actual impact on the Global South.

[Abu_Hind]

I thought it was in your face and provocative. Kind of cool. But I didn't know of the historical background, thanks for sharing it with us.

[afrakabob]

Originally Posted by dreamdeferred

It's an insanely presumptuos argument that has been roundly criticsized......on the other hand it's been adopted like gospel in some circles.

i've heard that fukuyama has changed his tune a bit since (probably as it became more obvious how nonsensical his argument was).
but the damage is done. i will never, ever take anything he says seriously

[MossadConspiracy]

Marcos is the snuffalupagus of communism

[dreamdeferred]

Originally Posted by afrakabob

i've heard that fukuyama has changed his tune a bit since (probably as it became more obvious how nonsensical his argument was).
but the damage is done. i will never, ever take anything he says seriously

He basically said that his critics haven't "understood" his argument since he was using a Hegelian model of historical critique...among other things. We know what's up Fukuyama

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Marcos is the snuffalupagus of communism

haha wth?

Nah dude.......EZLN Zapatistas are definitely on the left of the political spectrum but I wouldn't call them communist.....hell.. they don't even have a manifesto lol

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Timbit

It's not about having thin skin.
It's that swearing isn't appropriate on a Muzlamic forum. It wouldn't make sense to have filters on our text, but to let members have inappropriate pictures as avatars.

Do you always complain whenever anyone uses terms like:

"STFU"
"I'mma kickyo ass"
"biatch"
"shove it"
"jackass"
"SOB"

etc etc? If not then I don't see that you would have any grounds for being so selective. I'm all for cleanliness in language and behavior, but please be consistent in your objections.

[sally]

Originally Posted by afrakabob

i've heard that fukuyama has changed his tune a bit since (probably as it became more obvious how nonsensical his argument was).
but the damage is done. i will never, ever take anything he says seriously

now why did i read that as 'futurama'?

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by dreamdeferred

The Zapatistas are inspiring to many of us who have serious concerns about "Free Trade" and globalization especially when seen in the context of actual impact on the Global South.

What's the Islamic basis for your argument against free-trade and globalization ?

Give us some evidence for your claim that globalization does and always will do more harm than good.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by dreamdeferred

haha wth?

Nah dude.......EZLN Zapatistas are definitely on the left of the political spectrum but I wouldn't call them communist.....hell.. they don't even have a manifesto lol

maybe not but theyre still communists

if they choose to call themselves revolutionary democratic anarchosyndicalists, thats fine but theyre commies. If they choose to call themselves liberation struggle maoists, thats cool too but theyre commies. If they call themselves post-neocolonial eco-socialists... yup, you guessed it

and he's the snuffalupagus of communism

ws

[dreamdeferred]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

What's the Islamic basis for your argument against free-trade and globalization ?

Give us some evidence for your claim that globalization does and always will do more harm than good.

Ummmmm......where did I claim that there is an "Islamic argument against free-trade and globalization"?

I'm certainly not against Free Trade or capitalism in their essential sense...but I recognize that we call "Free Trade" is very far from "free" or fair. That historically......countries with economic and military superiority are able to construct agreements wherein they receive a much larger portion of the benefits of trade at the expense of those who are marginalized by the process. This is well studied. Also.....countries we refer to as Third World.....are bound to coercive agreements by the IMF, World Bank and other development agencies that seek to impose a raw/unfiltered/unregulated imagining of capitalism that inevitably leads to further poverty and concentration of wealth and power into an oligarchic class....Latin America is a perfect testament to this reality.

Globalization is a poorly defined term that has come to mean everything to everybody so I tend steer clear of debates until we can agree on a common definition. Briefly though...I'll say this much. Globalization as imagined by Thomas Friedman in "Lexus and the Olive Tree"or "The World is Flat" is a pipe dream.

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

maybe not but theyre still communists

if they choose to call themselves revolutionary democratic anarchosyndicalists, thats fine but theyre commies. If they choose to call themselves liberation struggle maoists, thats cool too but theyre commies. If they call themselves post-neocolonial eco-socialists... yup, you guessed it

and he's the snuffalupagus of communism

ws

haha....arbitrary distinctions made on the basis of political sloganeering.

But I like that you brought up anarchosyndycalism.....nice!

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by dreamdeferred

Ummmmm......where did I claim that there is an "Islamic argument against free-trade and globalization"?

I'm certainly not against Free Trade or capitalism in their essential sense...but I recognize that we call "Free Trade" is very far from "free" or fair. That historically......countries with economic and military superiority are able to construct agreements wherein they receive a much larger portion of the benefits of trade at the expense of those who are marginalized by the process. This is well studied. Also.....countries we refer to as Third World.....are bound to coercive agreements by the IMF, World Bank and other development agencies that seek to impose a raw/unfiltered/unregulated imagining of capitalism that inevitably leads to further poverty and concentration of wealth and power into an oligarchic class....Latin America is a perfect testament to this reality.

Globalization is a poorly defined term that has come to mean everything to everybody so I tend steer clear of debates until we can agree on a common definition. Briefly though...I'll say this much. Globalization as imagined by Thomas Friedman in "Lexus and the Olive Tree"or "The World is Flat" is a pipe dream.

haha....arbitrary distinctions made on the basis of political sloganeering.

But I like that you brought up anarchosyndycalism.....nice!

Regarding your second paragraph are you arguing that human history reveals an equal bargaining position between buyers and sellers prior to the last three centuries ? because if you're not I congratulate you on your naive idealism and look forward to us all living as members of the Federation of Planets..

It's anarcho-syndicalism...

[dreamdeferred]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

Regarding your second paragraph are you arguing that human history reveals an equal bargaining position between buyers and sellers prior to the last three centuries ?

What?

In what sense is are global trade agreements today analogous to those prior to World War 2? Are you arguing for the sake of it...or do you have case to make?

It's anarcho-syndicalism...and I don't recall bringing it up..

Thanks for correcting my lack of hyphenation on a forum...it's appreciated. Also....that was obviously a response to Mossad's post.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by dreamdeferred

What?

In what sense is are global trade agreements today analogous to those prior to World War 2?

I referred to unequal bargaining positions which have always existed.

Thanks for correcting my lack of hyphenation on a forum...it's appreciated. Also....that was obviously a response to Mossad's post.

I also corrected your spelling. Its always good when people use such complicated words on Islamica and are obviously familiar with them.

All these varieties of Commie-ism...amazing what horrors and tyranny they have produced around the world.