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Old 08-15-2008, 08:47 AM
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Default Blowback from Bear-Baiting

I obviously dislike Putin & don't support Russia in their endeavors. I like this article, though, since Buchanan underscores a lot of the arrogant hypocrisy/double standards that are pretty much unchallenged in the realm of American foreign policy.

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08/15/08
Pat Buchanan

Mikheil Saakashvili's decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia's invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser's decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.

Nasser's blunder cost him the Sinai in the Six-Day War. Saakashvili's blunder probably means permanent loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili's army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours.

Vladimir Putin took the opportunity to kick the Georgian army out of Abkhazia, as well, to bomb Tbilisi and to seize Gori, birthplace of Stalin.

Reveling in his status as an intimate of George Bush, **** Cheney and John McCain, and America's lone democratic ally in the Caucasus, Saakashvili thought he could get away with a lightning coup and present the world with a fait accompli.

Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear.

American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight -- Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.

Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush.

True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?

When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?

Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of who viscerally detest Russia?

That Putin took the occasion of Saakashvili's provocative and stupid stunt to administer an extra dose of punishment is undeniable. But is not Russian anger understandable? For years the West has rubbed Russia's nose in her Cold War defeat and treated her like Weimar Germany.

When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?

American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.

Bush, Cheney and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin's birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia's Black Sea fleet.

When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia?

The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs. A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an anti-missile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand.

We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic "revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus.

Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.

Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow.

How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?

For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia's space and getting into Russia's face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost -- in Tbilisi.

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Old 08-15-2008, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

Ugggghhhhh....I'm pretty terrified that I actually agree with Pat Buchanan on this. I mean....who wants to agree with Pat Buchanan?

Great article with solid insights that are glaringly absent in most mainstream coverage.
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Old 08-15-2008, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

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Originally Posted by sixpakistan View Post
Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of who viscerally detest Russia?
Yeah, pretty much.
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Old 08-16-2008, 01:22 AM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

Excellent article.
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Old 08-16-2008, 06:54 AM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

I think someone was buoyed by the hubris of having peasants targeted by superpowers at his order and stories of six-day wars...

http://www.senate.gov/~foreign/testi...ony080612p.pdf
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

Lol ;An interesting quote on the article

I believe that Georgia started this war as much as I believe the Dalai Lama is a violent man. If armed US peacekeepers were firing on Toronto and Canada led an insursion to take it back noone would saya Canada started the war. Russia bullied Georgia and forced their hand. The US and Russia should get to launching nukes and finish this once and for all. There is not room in this world for both of our ideals. After 80% of us are dead the rest of us can duke it out with sticks and rocks to see who's ideology wins. Enough is enough.
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:47 PM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto View Post
Lol ;An interesting quote on the article

I believe that Georgia started this war as much as I believe the Dalai Lama is a violent man. If armed US peacekeepers were firing on Toronto and Canada led an insursion to take it back noone would saya Canada started the war. Russia bullied Georgia and forced their hand. The US and Russia should get to launching nukes and finish this once and for all. There is not room in this world for both of our ideals. After 80% of us are dead the rest of us can duke it out with sticks and rocks to see who's ideology wins. Enough is enough.
Whoever wrote that basically just did the intellectual equivalent of this;

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Old 08-21-2008, 07:52 AM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

Who Started Cold War II
Pat Buchanan

The American people should be eternally grateful to Old Europe for having spiked the Bush-McCain plan to bring Georgia into NATO.

Had Georgia been in NATO when Mikheil Saakashvili invaded South Ossetia, we would be eyeball to eyeball with Russia, facing war in the Caucasus, where Moscow's superiority is as great as U.S. superiority in the Caribbean during the Cuban missile crisis.

If the Russia-Georgia war proves nothing else, it is the insanity of giving erratic hotheads in volatile nations the power to drag the United States into war. Continued

From Harry Truman to Ronald Reagan, as Defense Secretary Robert Gates said, U.S. presidents have sought to avoid shooting wars with Russia, even when the Bear was at its most beastly.

Truman refused to use force to break Stalin's Berlin blockade. Ike refused to intervene when the Butcher of Budapest drowned the Hungarian Revolution in blood. LBJ sat impotent as Leonid Brezhnev's tanks crushed the Prague Spring. Jimmy Carter's response to Brezhnev's invasion of Afghanistan was to boycott the Moscow Olympics. When Brezhnev ordered his Warsaw satraps to crush Solidarity and shot down a South Korean airliner killing scores of U.S. citizens, including a congressman, Reagan did -- nothing.

These presidents were not cowards. They simply would not go to war when no vital U.S. interest was at risk to justify a war. Yet, had George W. Bush prevailed and were Georgia in NATO, U.S. Marines could be fighting Russian troops over whose flag should fly over a province of 70,000 South Ossetians who prefer Russians to Georgians.

The arrogant folly of the architects of U.S. post-Cold War policy is today on display. By bringing three ex-Soviet republics into NATO, we have moved the U.S. red line for war from the Elbe almost to within artillery range of the old Leningrad.

Should America admit Ukraine into NATO, Yalta, vacation resort of the czars, will be a NATO port and Sevastopol, traditional home of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, will become a naval base for the U.S. Sixth Fleet. This is altogether a bridge too far.

And can we not understand how a Russian patriot like Vladimir Putin would be incensed by this U.S. encirclement after Russia shed its empire and sought our friendship? How would Andy Jackson have reacted to such crowding by the British Empire?

As of 1991, the oil of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan belonged to Moscow. Can we not understand why Putin would smolder as avaricious Yankees built pipelines to siphon the oil and gas of the Caspian Basin through breakaway Georgia to the West?
For a dozen years, Putin & Co. watched as U.S. agents helped to dump over regimes in Ukraine and Georgia that were friendly to Moscow.

If Cold War II is coming, who started it, if not us?

The swift and decisive action of Putin's army in running the Georgian forces out of South Ossetia in 24 hours after Saakashvili began his barrage and invasion suggests Putin knew exactly what Saakashvili was up to and dropped the hammer on him.

What did we know? Did we know Georgia was about to walk into Putin's trap? Did we not see the Russians lying in wait north of the border? Did we give Saakashvili a green light?

Joe Biden ought to be conducting public hearings on who caused this U.S. humiliation.

The war in Georgia has exposed the dangerous overextension of U.S. power. There is no way America can fight a war with Russia in the Caucasus with our army tied down in Afghanistan and Iraq. Nor should we. Hence, it is demented to be offering, as John McCain and Barack Obama are, NATO membership to Tbilisi.

The United States must decide whether it wants a partner in a flawed Russia or a second Cold War. For if we want another Cold War, we are, by cutting Russia out of the oil of the Caspian and pushing NATO into her face, going about it exactly the right way.
Vladimir Putin is no Stalin. He is a nationalist determined, as ruler of a proud and powerful country, to assert his nation's primacy in its own sphere, just as U.S. presidents from James Monroe to Bush have done on our side of the Atlantic.

A resurgent Russia is no threat to any vital interests of the United States. It is a threat to an American Empire that presumes some God-given right to plant U.S. military power in the backyard or on the front porch of Mother Russia.

Who rules Abkhazia and South Ossetia is none of our business. And after this madcap adventure of Saakashvili, why not let the people of these provinces decide their own future in plebiscites conducted by the United Nations or the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe?

As for Saakashvili, he's probably toast in Tbilisi after this stunt. Let the neocons find him an endowed chair at the American Enterprise Institute.

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Old 08-21-2008, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

He raises some excellent points, but the thing is, it is in American interests to encricle Russia, and alienate them from their allies. When you're the big dog on campus you have to make sure anyone with any power or potential threat power is cut down to size. Otherwise you won't be the big dog for too long.
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Old 08-22-2008, 05:08 AM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

I think Russia took a typical father state approach and admonished his child Georgia for being naughty.

Unfortunately in real life that means, war, death, destruction, helplessness.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpakistan View Post
Who Started Cold War II
Pat Buchanan

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Wow.......two for two by Pat Buchanan. When did this guy become such a lucid critic of our foreign policy? The tone of the article is a touch on the over-dramatic side but once again he raises some outstanding points.

What happened to the old Pat Buchanan who was a total douchebag and blowhard?
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Old 08-22-2008, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamdeferred View Post
Wow.......two for two by Pat Buchanan. When did this guy become such a lucid critic of our foreign policy? The tone of the article is a touch on the over-dramatic side but once again he raises some outstanding points.

What happened to the old Pat Buchanan who was a total douchebag and blowhard?
Pat has always been an isolationist, nothing new here. When he says "Who rules Abkhazia and South Ossetia is none of our business." he means it. That is, he doesn't give a hair on a rat's behind what happens to anyone outside our borders. Come to think of it, he doesn't care about what happens to most people inside our borders, either.
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxhole View Post
Pat has always been an isolationist, nothing new here. When he says "Who rules Abkhazia and South Ossetia is none of our business." he means it. That is, he doesn't give a hair on a rat's behind what happens to anyone outside our borders. Come to think of it, he doesn't care about what happens to most people inside our borders, either.
Yeah...I guess I just never paid attention to the subtleties of his political positions given his overall douche-iness. He happens to be spot on in his analysis of this particular situation though.

I'm not sure...but I'm getting the sense you believe our foreign policy is largely motivated by a sort of humanitarian impulse. Is this the case? Because I can assure you......if we made this particular situation "our business" it would have nothing to do with real concern about the people caught up in this fiasco....except as a kind of ancillary concern.
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: Blowback from Bear-Baiting

As the russian saying goes, 'blow the bear, the bear will blow back'
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