[Kona_Silat]

Considering that insurgency is losing ground in Iraq and with more troops being deployed, what if America wins the war in Iraq? How would you feel and react since this is a great possibility?

[ChotooMotoo]

You can't win an occupation, which is what Iraq is for America.

[Kona_Silat]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

You can't win an occupation, which is what Iraq is for America.

Says who? Anything can happen with the will of ALLAH

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by Kona_Silat

Says who? Anything can happen with the will of ALLAH

Looks like Allah isn't willing for the Americans to win in Iraq

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | UK Basra base exit 'not a defeat'

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Kona_Silat

Says who? Anything can happen with the will of ALLAH

Of course, with God's will, all American M-16's could turn into flower bouquets too.

To defeat a native insurgency, you have to take away its support base, which is the local civilian population.

And to take away the support base means you have to make the local populace believe, en mass, that it's better for them to accept American plans for Iraq rather than to have the right of freedom from foreign occupation and tyranny.

And to do that, you'd have to take away their lives, their souls, their hearts and their minds.

So, short of turning all of Iraq into a glass parking lot, that's just not going to happen.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Looks like Allah isn't willing for the Americans to win in Iraq

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | UK Basra base exit 'not a defeat'

That article was outlining the British withdrawal from Basra. That's been the plan for some time.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Of course, with God's will, all American M-16's could turn into flower bouquets too.

To defeat a native insurgency, you have to take away its support base, which is the local civilian population.

And to take away the support base means you have to make the local populace believe, en mass, that it's better for them to accept American plans for Iraq rather than to have the right of freedom from foreign occupation and tyranny.

And to do that, you'd have to take away their lives, their souls, their hearts and their minds.

So, short of turning all of Iraq into a glass parking lot, that's just not going to happen.

Your throwing the people fighting in Iraq into one big pot. Most of the groups in there aren't fighting for freedom from American tyranny, they're fighting for their share of the power when the Americans leave.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

So, short of turning all of Iraq into a glass parking lot, that's just not going to happen.

I think it's possible, if Kona enlists in the army.

I know that people get raped in the army, and it's a small price to pay for Kona I'm sure, but I'll leave that for my Kaneeri partner to discuss.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Variable

Your throwing the people fighting in Iraq into one big pot. Most of the groups in there aren't fighting for freedom from American tyranny, they're fighting for their share of the power when the Americans leave.

John Pilger, citing American sources, said that 85% of the attacks are carried out against Americans and other foreign troops. Maybe the actual figures and numbers are in his most recent book. That's the best place to look for citations.

[MossadConspiracy]

yeah but thats mostly a game with statistics, because whenever coalition forces come under fire its classified as an attack even when its just one or a few shots fired that dont hit anything. A more accurate look at insurgent activities would be a look at casualties. An incident where somebody fires shots from a window at troops a hundred meters away is not the same as one where trucks laden with bombs drive into a market and suicide bombers kill hundreds of people, although each is classified as one attack (since thats what they are). They are on completely different levels when it comes to the amount of manpower, money, and organizational sophistication necessary to carry them out. Iraq has lost over 1800 civilians in the last month, many hundreds of whom were killed in just such attacks. American forces lost a tiny fraction of that figure

Anyway, its pretty much impossible for the USA to "win" in Iraq, considering the original goals that they set out to accomplish. Its possible for stability to come back to the country, but even that is a long shot

ws

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Variable

Your throwing the people fighting in Iraq into one big pot. Most of the groups in there aren't fighting for freedom from American tyranny, they're fighting for their share of the power when the Americans leave.

I consider that irrelevant, since they started fighting the Americans first and still are, to this day.

Internecine conflicts that may develop over the course of the war are not unexpected.

[Shahnawaz]

Kona, the title of this thread has to be the peak of stupidity. America wins NO wars. All it does is air-strike here and there, but fails to win any ground.
All that has happened recently is not America's doing, rather it is a result of Power hungery nationalists who have turned against the Mujahideen. And even with this occurance it has little to no affect on the actual facts on the ground.

The Mujahideen fight, while puppet forces turn on their heals and call air support, which ends up killing mostly civillians.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

yeah but thats mostly a game with statistics, because whenever coalition forces come under fire its classified as an attack even when its just one or a few shots fired that dont hit anything. A more accurate look at insurgent activities would be a look at casualties. An incident where somebody fires shots from a window at troops a hundred meters away is not the same as one where trucks laden with bombs drive into a market and suicide bombers kill hundreds of people, although each is classified as one attack (since thats what they are). They are on completely different levels when it comes to the amount of manpower, money, and organizational sophistication necessary to carry them out. Iraq has lost over 1800 civilians in the last month, many hundreds of whom were killed in just such attacks. American forces lost a tiny fraction of that figure

Anyway, its pretty much impossible for the USA to "win" in Iraq, considering the original goals that they set out to accomplish. Its possible for stability to come back to the country, but even that is a long shot

ws

You know, let me just quote this Iraqi women who spoke at the vigil:

"I meant to say, on the instructions of Annie, I went around talking to people at the vigil and earlier on very nice young men from Sadr city voiced their support. I asked them if they wanted to say a few words but they declined.
US fighter jets have been bombing the densely populated Sadr City on the pretext of fighting terrorism!
If they are serious about fighting terrorism, then they should make **** Cheney commit suicide!

US Helicopter downed and 14 US soldiers killed, north of Baghdad, My friend Zaineb wrote: Let's wait for the retaliation. Which market, village, town is going to be targeted by the US in the alleged shape of a suicide bomber?
World | Africa - Reuters.com

By the way, Iraqis always report an American helicopter hovering above, when a massive bomb in a parked car would suddenly explode. And in some cases the occupants of the car are unaware of it (the car has been stopped and driver separated from the car earlier at a check point)."

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

You know, let me just quote this Iraqi women who spoke at the vigil:

"I meant to say, on the instructions of Annie, I went around talking to people at the vigil and earlier on very nice young men from Sadr city voiced their support. I asked them if they wanted to say a few words but they declined.
US fighter jets have been bombing the densely populated Sadr City on the pretext of fighting terrorism!
If they are serious about fighting terrorism, then they should make **** Cheney commit suicide!

US Helicopter downed and 14 US soldiers killed, north of Baghdad, My friend Zaineb wrote: Let's wait for the retaliation. Which market, village, town is going to be targeted by the US in the alleged shape of a suicide bomber?
World | Africa - Reuters.com

By the way, Iraqis always report an American helicopter hovering above, when a massive bomb in a parked car would suddenly explode. And in some cases the occupants of the car are unaware of it (the car has been stopped and driver separated from the car earlier at a check point)."

salam

the reason that air raids resumed for a while over Sadr city is because there's a militia based there that has massacred thousands of people and emptied out entire sunni neighborhoods of baghdad of their populations by killing them or intimidating them into leaving. I dont know who exactly you were quoting there, whether it is a person from the vigil, a boy from Sadr city, or someone named Annie, but whoever it is seems to be ignoring that! If they're a Sadr city shia then they may have good reason because alot of shias see the Mahdi group as protectors. Whatever, thats their choice, but i'd say an objective look would reveal the true nature of that group

As for the insinuations about conspiracy theories surrounding the suicide bombings, I'd say that they are far fetched and I am inclined to dismiss them because they seem like fairy tales, however thats a matter of opinion. Some may see them as completely feasible and reasonable. But either way, there is no evidence, just claims. And there have been claims of giant spiders and killer man-eating badgers and so on. Iraq has been the birthplace of alot of crazy stories of late.

anyway, this is veering. None of that had anything to do with the point I was trying to make- casualties generated by insurgent attacks are a better measure than the raw number of attacks, because insurgent attacks in Iraq occur on a huge spectrum of intensity and destructiveness.

ws

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

By the way, Iraqis always report an American helicopter hovering above, when a massive bomb in a parked car would suddenly explode. And in some cases the occupants of the car are unaware of it (the car has been stopped and driver separated from the car e