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07-25-2008, 11:19 AM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinnzaman
The biggest argument against ethnic cleansing of Native Americans is that it was "lawful" since the Americans had "purchased" the land from Native American tribes through treaties with either Europeans or the Native Americans themselves.
How would you respond to this claim?
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if by purchased you mean trading blankets killing them with smallpox and wrote up "contracts" in a language that native americans wouldnt understand and paid interpreturs who could "translate apporiate terms and conditons" = terms favorable to Europeans, then yea they "purchased" land from native americans.
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07-25-2008, 11:23 AM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarberry
if by purchased you mean trading blankets killing them with smallpox and wrote up "contracts" in a language that native americans wouldnt understand and paid interpreturs who could "translate apporiate terms and conditons" = terms favorable to Europeans, then yea they "purchased" land from native americans.
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I thought the smallpox in the blankets thing was discredited as a myth?
Do you have any evidence to black your claims up that the Native Americans didn't understand the treaties? My understanding is that a lot of the treaties made with the Southern tribes were made by chieftains who were either half-indian half-white or who were raised by Americans (either directly or through missionaries living in Indian territory) and had command of the language. A lot of the treaties were essentially huge land purchases by the government and the Indians received monies for it. If they objected to the treaty being enforced, they could've returned the monies.
If you have sources, hollaaaaaaaa |
07-25-2008, 11:24 AM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
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Originally Posted by dreamdeferred
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you were a history/economics major in college werent you....I only ask becasue you made reference to your "files" ... 
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07-25-2008, 12:46 PM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinnzaman
I thought the smallpox in the blankets thing was discredited as a myth?
Do you have any evidence to black your claims up that the Native Americans didn't understand the treaties? My understanding is that a lot of the treaties made with the Southern tribes were made by chieftains who were either half-indian half-white or who were raised by Americans (either directly or through missionaries living in Indian territory) and had command of the language. A lot of the treaties were essentially huge land purchases by the government and the Indians received monies for it. If they objected to the treaty being enforced, they could've returned the monies.
If you have sources, hollaaaaaaaa
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Smallpox "myth"
Modern History Sourcebook: Smallpox, Indians, and Blankets
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...6L._SS500_.jpg
Colonial Germ Warfare
"On June 24, 1763, William Trent, a local trader, recorded in his journal that two Indian chiefs had visited the fort, urging the British to abandon the fight, but the British refused. Instead, when the Indians were ready to leave, Trent wrote: "Out of our regard for them, we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect."
Amazon.de: Crucible of War: The Seven Years' War and the Fate of Empire in British North America, 1754-1766 (Vintage): Fred Anderson: Englische Bücher
Were American Indians the Victims of Genocide?
"On that day, Churchill writes, the U.S. Army began to dispense "'trade blankets' to Mandans and other Indians gathered at Fort Clark on the Missouri River in present-day North Dakota." He continues: Far from being trade goods, the blankets had been taken from a military infirmary in St. Louis quarantined for smallpox, and brought upriver aboard the steamboat St. Peter’s. When the first Indians showed symptoms of the disease on July 14, the post surgeon advised those camped near the post to scatter and seek "sanctuary" in the villages of healthy relatives.
In this way the disease was spread, the Mandans were "virtually exterminated," and other tribes suffered similarly devastating losses. Citing a figure of "100,000 or more fatalities" caused by the U.S. Army in the 1836-40 smallpox"
Claim 2 ( that native americans often times didnt understand treaties )
"As Stevens did not speak any of the Indian languages in use in Washington and few Indians understood English, his speech and their responses went through a laborious chain of translation: His words were first translated into the Chinook Jargon-a blend of several Indian languages along with French and English that was developed to facilitate trade throughout the Pacific Northwest-and then it was translated into the language or languages used by the various Indian tribes at the councils. Indian comments and responses had to go through the same process in reverse. As many historians of the treaty process have observed, it is not clear how well the Indians understood Stevens's words or the provisions and meaning of the treaties. One twentieth-century writer noted, "Chinook jargon, a trade medium of limited vocabulary and simple grammar, was inadequate to express precisely the legal effects of the treaties, although the general meaning of the treaty language could be explained." George Gibbs, the ethnologist who was a member of the treaty commission, later compiled what he believed was a comprehensive Chinook Jargon dictionary. It contained fewer than 500 words."
A History of Treaty-Making and Reservations on the Olympic Peninsula
A History of Treaty-Making and Reservations on the Olympic Peninsula (conclusion)
Amazon.com: Uneven Ground: American Indian Sovereignty and Federal Law: David E. Wilkins, K. Tsianina Lomawaima: Books
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07-25-2008, 12:50 PM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarberry
if by purchased you mean trading blankets killing them with smallpox and wrote up "contracts" in a language that native americans wouldnt understand and paid interpreturs who could "translate apporiate terms and conditons" = terms favorable to Europeans, then yea they "purchased" land from native americans.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jinnzaman
I thought the smallpox in the blankets thing was discredited as a myth?
Do you have any evidence to black your claims up that the Native Americans didn't understand the treaties? My understanding is that a lot of the treaties made with the Southern tribes were made by chieftains who were either half-indian half-white or who were raised by Americans (either directly or through missionaries living in Indian territory) and had command of the language. A lot of the treaties were essentially huge land purchases by the government and the Indians received monies for it. If they objected to the treaty being enforced, they could've returned the monies.
If you have sources, hollaaaaaaaa
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I haven't read this book but some of the intersections between colonial power and the ability to build a legal edifice that supported land acquistion is adressed here....
Harvard University Press: How the Indians Lost Their Land : Law and Power on the Frontier by Stuart Banner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarberry
you were a history/economics major in college werent you....I only ask becasue you made reference to your "files" ... |
Nah LOL,
I just like to sound like a pompous jackass.
I do have files though 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYf5gRxzrIQ
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07-25-2008, 01:12 PM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
1. Regarding smallpox as a biological weapon by the British:
Smallpox, Indians, and Germ Warfare
a. The letter referenced is apparently can't be verified
b. The Native Americans already had smallpox before the alleged transferral of the blanket
c. Apparently, there's little evidence that the plan was actually carried - only two blankets were given from the smallpox hospital, but they were given to the Indians by traders, not the British.
d. Some have theorized thats not sufficient to spread smallpox anyway
2. Regarding smallpox as a biological weapon by the Americans:
Were American Indians the Victims of Genocide?
a. The blankets were given by the US army from a steamboat
b. The steamboat, comprised of whites, had a smallpox outbreak
c. A doctor advised the Indians to refrain from close contact to inhibit the spread of the disease, but as they moved out of their areas, they ended up spreading it further
d. There is little statistical evidence that indicates that a hundred thousand were wiped out |
07-25-2008, 01:18 PM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinnzaman
1. Regarding smallpox as a biological weapon by the British:
Smallpox, Indians, and Germ Warfare
a. The letter referenced is apparently can't be verified
b. The Native Americans already had smallpox before the alleged transferral of the blanket
c. Apparently, there's little evidence that the plan was actually carried - only two blankets were given from the smallpox hospital, but they were given to the Indians by traders, not the British.
d. Some have theorized thats not sufficient to spread smallpox anyway
2. Regarding smallpox as a biological weapon by the Americans:
Were American Indians the Victims of Genocide?
a. The blankets were given by the US army from a steamboat
b. The steamboat, comprised of whites, had a smallpox outbreak
c. A doctor advised the Indians to refrain from close contact to inhibit the spread of the disease, but as they moved out of their areas, they ended up spreading it further
d. There is little statistical evidence that indicates that a hundred thousand were wiped out |
who tj Nelson? and multiple people have written books about this stuff....so I perfer to go with multiple sources than two biased sources.
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07-25-2008, 01:27 PM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
Two words.....Historical Revisionism.
I skimmed through both those links and they seem to be nothing more than apologist rhetoric.
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Birds of the same feather flock together/Congested on a majestic street corner/That's a short time goal for most of 'em/ Cuz most of 'em/Would rather expand their wings and hover over greater things/That's what we call inspired flight/By the pigeons that gotta eat pizza crust every night/And "Let there be light" was understood/When a mic-stand descended from up-and-above into the hood - - Vast Aire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYf5gRxzrIQ
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07-25-2008, 01:30 PM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarberry
who tj Nelson? and multiple people have written books about this stuff....so I perfer to go with multiple sources than two biased sources.
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Well, the difference between the two sources is that the authors cross-referenced the sources of the other books. If the other historians didn't provide any citations for some of their assertions, then it makes their credibility go down.
Also, I've got some articles submitted to peer-review journals that have indicated likewise.
Furthermore, at best, these are only two examples of biological warfare. It can't be used as an example of ethnic cleansing per se.
Also, no doubt, some will argue that the first example shouldn't apply to America since it was under the British. |
07-25-2008, 01:51 PM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinnzaman
Well, the difference between the two sources is that the authors cross-referenced the sources of the other books. If the other historians didn't provide any citations for some of their assertions, then it makes their credibility go down.
Also, I've got some articles submitted to peer-review journals that have indicated likewise.
Furthermore, at best, these are only two examples of biological warfare. It can't be used as an example of ethnic cleansing per se.
Also, no doubt, some will argue that the first example shouldn't apply to America since it was under the British.
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Ok let's take smallpox out of the equation for a moment...........are you looking for any evidence that there was a systematic effort to eliminate Native Americans?
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Birds of the same feather flock together/Congested on a majestic street corner/That's a short time goal for most of 'em/ Cuz most of 'em/Would rather expand their wings and hover over greater things/That's what we call inspired flight/By the pigeons that gotta eat pizza crust every night/And "Let there be light" was understood/When a mic-stand descended from up-and-above into the hood - - Vast Aire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYf5gRxzrIQ
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07-25-2008, 01:57 PM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
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Originally Posted by dreamdeferred
Ok let's take smallpox out of the equation for a moment...........are you looking for any evidence that there was a systematic effort to eliminate Native Americans?
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Of course I am, but I want strong sources. I want to see both sides the issue.
Critical engagement is key here. |
07-25-2008, 02:06 PM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamdeferred
Ok let's take smallpox out of the equation for a moment...........are you looking for any evidence that there was a systematic effort to eliminate Native Americans?
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Id say the overwhelming proof is in the fact that this country is called United States of America. Where are the Native Americans now? Alcohol and diseases destroyed their populations, they were murdered en masse by white settlers, their entire way of life destroyed and deemed "heathen" by the Christian masses. They are huddled on their reservations...their only salvation has been casinos, as horrible as that sounds.
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07-25-2008, 02:12 PM
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in America
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Originally Posted by jinnzaman
Of course I am, but I want strong sources. I want to see both sides the issue.
Critical engagement is key here.
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Understood, I just wanted to be clear about the argument you're attempting to construct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentReznor858
Id say the overwhelming proof is in the fact that this country is called United States of America. Where are the Native Americans now? Alcohol and diseases destroyed their populations, they were murdered en masse by white settlers, their entire way of life destroyed and deemed "heathen" by the Christian masses. They are huddled on their reservations...their only salvation has been casinos, as horrible as that sounds.
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No doubt......the Native American story is a tragic one, from what I've read it easily surpasses the Holocaust in it's illustration of human brutality.
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Birds of the same feather flock together/Congested on a majestic street corner/That's a short time goal for most of 'em/ Cuz most of 'em/Would rather expand their wings and hover over greater things/That's what we call inspired flight/By the pigeons that gotta eat pizza crust every night/And "Let there be light" was understood/When a mic-stand descended from up-and-above into the hood - - Vast Aire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYf5gRxzrIQ
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