[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Turkey is doing well, theres no need for them to try any experiments that could destroy their society

All they have to do is allow more freedom of religion and freedom of expression. The majority of Turks are not in favor of having a new dynasty of Ottoman Emperors, and that sounds like a very radical solution for some problems that are pretty minor and are well on the way to being solved. I can see a place like Saudi Arabia having some big bearded guy with a fanciful title like Amir Al-Mumineen or Khalifa taking power after a violent coup. A movement like that would have alot of traction in Saudi Arabia and alot of popular support too, but Turkey is very different.

ws

I think many of us, when we think about the Caliphate and the Khalifa, we imagine some bearded yokel with a curved sword lopping off heads and using 7th century dialect. But if we think about it, the Khalifa is likely to be well versed in modernity, bearded he may be, but I doubt he will be of the yokel variety. Remember, Muhammad (saw) was responsible for spearheading a huge social revolution - his ideas were very progressive and radical for the time. He would probably have been viewed as a complete modernist, by his peers. In fact, we know that his peers wanted to maintain the status quo, and stick with how things had always been. To my understanding of this, I imagine our Khalifa will emerge to smash the status quo, to shake things up, and it's not inconceivable that tihs could happen in a modern state like Turkey.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

I think many of us, when we think about the Caliphate and the Khalifa, we imagine some bearded yokel with a curved sword lopping off heads and using 7th century dialect. But if we think about it, the Khalifa is likely to be well versed in modernity, bearded he may be, but I doubt he will be of the yokel variety. Remember, Muhammad (saw) was responsible for spearheading a huge social revolution - his ideas were very progressive and radical for the time. He would probably have been viewed as a complete modernist, by his peers. In fact, we know that his peers wanted to maintain the status quo, and stick with how things had always been. To my understanding of this, I imagine our Khalifa will emerge to smash the status quo, to shake things up, and it's not inconceivable that tihs could happen in a modern state like Turkey.

nothing is inconceivable, but if you look at the current world that we live in and the ones who are agitating or fighting for something like khilafa (not the traditional concept of course), they arent models of modernity. We are not talking about the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamic parties in Turkey or other muslim countries, the mainstream Islamic institutions anywhere, etc. We are talking about illiterate rednecks with guns and swords, fanatics with suicide belts and rifles and messianic suicidal doctrines, and crazy political parties like Hizb Al Tahrir or Ghuraba' (wierdos), which attract the refuse of the Muslim communities in the United Kingdom and America (but may have a different role elsewhere). These are fringe people that dont motivate or inspire the rest of Islam

Then other than that, there is a huge reserve of people who say that they support khilafa, but have no idea whom they would want to have that seat or how a government like that should be created, or where, and are not doing anything to further this cause that they claim except talking alot. People like that will never achieve anything if things continue as they are.

Maybe theres a tiny number of people who fit that profile that you described, but i've never heard of any of them. I'd be very interested to hear more about them and their organizations. I think alot of the muslims I described who talk and do nothing would be more motivated to actually do something if there were organizations that actually offered a positive vision and a good future, rather than just Bin Laden the psycho terrorist, The Taliban which led their already destroyed country into even deeper poverty and destruction, the wild fanatics in Iraq chopping people's heads off and blowing up mosques and markets on a daily basis, and 19 year old unemployable losers in London. Thats a vacuum that could be filled, it would be interesting to see it happen

ws

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by Revert

When you understand the basics of Shari'ah then you should talk about it in a critical light. However from your comments its clear you don't.

I urge you to enlighten yourself rather than relying on the actions of those whom claim to be acting the way of Islam. Learn more obout Islam before criticising aspects of the deen.

or do you mean criticising your wahabi preachers who teach you wrong?

go and actually the read quran and you will see for yourself what it says. what part of 'but if they repent' do you not understand?

all it means is that there is a maximum penalty allowed under shariah - unless the person repents.

even the first four calipha's threw criminals in jail.

ill give you an example of what im talking about. did you know that you can goto jail for speeding?

you see when you walk into traffic court, the judge will give a speech before court is in session. and he mentions to you that the maximum penalty allowed for speeding is x amount of days in jail.

now of course no is sent to jail for a minor traffic violation are they? because its the maximum penalty allowed - not what the law prescribes. and that's where your failure to understand shariah is wrong.

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

Turks have realised that the slavery of kuffar is not going to help them, the Europen Union and their people have been 'insulting' them for ages and this is also a 'good lesson' to you if you take any, that the 'slavery of kuffar' isn't going to do any good to you, they will always treat you as a 'paki'. Calling yourself a 'secular' wouldn't make you 'better' than them.

Unlike you I don't base what I am on how others may perceive it...vanity is never a positive trait. Do you consider dotting your forehead for the hindus too?

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Turkey is doing well, theres no need for them to try any experiments that could destroy their society

All they have to do is allow more freedom of religion and freedom of expression. The majority of Turks are not in favor of having a new dynasty of Ottoman Emperors, and that sounds like a very radical solution for some problems that are pretty minor and are well on the way to being solved. I can see a place like Saudi Arabia having some big bearded guy with a fanciful title like Amir Al-Mumineen or Khalifa taking power after a violent coup. A movement like that would have alot of traction in Saudi Arabia and alot of popular support too, but Turkey is very different.

ws

You know what's going on in Turkey? I suggest you to be in touch with current affairs and don't comment on issues you don't have proper knowledge and understanding. The majority in Turkey has rejected 'seculars' and cast its vote in favour of 'Islamists', then what is your problem? Why are you behaving like the 'Extremist West' which is 'imposing' secularism everywhere in the world? Why don't you give the people of Turkey 'freedom' to elect Islamists? Leave them alone please and kiss the 'secular hips' wherever you like.

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

I think many of us, when we think about the Caliphate and the Khalifa, we imagine some bearded yokel with a curved sword lopping off heads and using 7th century dialect. But if we think about it, the Khalifa is likely to be well versed in modernity, bearded he may be, but I doubt he will be of the yokel variety. Remember, Muhammad (saw) was responsible for spearheading a huge social revolution - his ideas were very progressive and radical for the time. He would probably have been viewed as a complete modernist, by his peers. In fact, we know that his peers wanted to maintain the status quo, and stick with how things had always been. To my understanding of this, I imagine our Khalifa will emerge to smash the status quo, to shake things up, and it's not inconceivable that tihs could happen in a modern state like Turkey.

I love your posts Jamroll, because you have the ability to 'think' mashaallah, which our 'seculars' are devoid of. Certainly the Prophet of Islam s.a.w was a thinker and revolutionist, the seculars of his time (the likes of Abu Jahl) were ignorant fools who didn't know how to run state affairs. Prophet Muhammad s.a.w introduced the best principles to run a state. The modern day khalifa will get rid of all the evils and corruption which seculars have brought with them e.g in Turkey, in India, in Pakistan, in UK and USA etc.

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

nothing is inconceivable, but if you look at the current world that we live in and the ones who are agitating or fighting for something like khilafa (not the traditional concept of course), they arent models of modernity. We are not talking about the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamic parties in Turkey or other muslim countries, the mainstream Islamic institutions anywhere, etc. We are talking about illiterate rednecks with guns and swords, fanatics with suicide belts and rifles and messianic suicidal doctrines, and crazy political parties like Hizb Al Tahrir or Ghuraba' (wierdos), which attract the refuse of the Muslim communities in the United Kingdom and America (but may have a different role elsewhere). These are fringe people that dont motivate or inspire the rest of Islam

Then other than that, there is a huge reserve of people who say that they support khilafa, but have no idea whom they would want to have that seat or how a government like that should be created, or where, and are not doing anything to further this cause that they claim except talking alot. People like that will never achieve anything if things continue as they are.

Maybe theres a tiny number of people who fit that profile that you described, but i've never heard of any of them. I'd be very interested to hear more about them and their organizations. I think alot of the muslims I described who talk and do nothing would be more motivated to actually do something if there were organizations that actually offered a positive vision and a good future, rather than just Bin Laden the psycho terrorist, The Taliban which led their already destroyed country into even deeper poverty and destruction, the wild fanatics in Iraq chopping people's heads off and blowing up mosques and markets on a daily basis, and 19 year old unemployable losers in London. Thats a vacuum that could be filled, it would be interesting to see it happen

ws

If education makes the likes of Bush and the rest of the kafir world, then sorry, no one wants that education. We want the 'right of life' more than education. Education is not necessary to live. The Americans, the British, their fellows - who are they? They are 'animals in the form of humans', in fact worse than animals. They have given more destruction to the world than scientific developments and by the way who the hell wants any scientific developments and technologies if he doesn't have the right to live. Your western terrorists are destroying whole of the Muslims world, at some places physically and at others 'intellectually', where they don't want to invade e.g in Pakistan, they impose their 'Agents', the likes of Musharraf and now Bay Nazir Bhutto..they protect the life of their dogs but kill us as if we are worse than dogs. Your scientific developments and technologies didn't give life to the poor Japanese whom you attacked with nuclear weapons, innocent Vietnamese whom you butchered as if they were sacrifice animals, unarmed civilians of Iraq and Afghanistan whom you are everyday killing indiscriminately...
your techonologies are not giving them life, instead taking their lives away. You are giving the world more weapons and bloodshed than any good you can give from your so called 'education' and 'literacy'.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

You know what's going on in Turkey? I suggest you to be in touch with current affairs and don't comment on issues you don't have proper knowledge and understanding. The majority in Turkey has rejected 'seculars' and cast its vote in favour of 'Islamists', then what is your problem? Why are you behaving like the 'Extremist West' which is 'imposing' secularism everywhere in the world? Why don't you give the people of Turkey 'freedom' to elect Islamists? Leave them alone please and kiss the 'secular hips' wherever you like.

Turkey elected a good president

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

If education makes the likes of Bush and the rest of the kafir world, then sorry, no one wants that education. We want the 'right of life' more than education. Education is not necessary to live. The Americans, the British, their fellows - who are they? They are 'animals in the form of humans', in fact worse than animals. They have given more destruction to the world than scientific developments and by the way who the hell wants any scientific developments and technologies if he doesn't have the right to live. Your western terrorists are destroying whole of the Muslims world, at some places physically and at others 'intellectually', where they don't want to invade e.g in Pakistan, they impose their 'Agents', the likes of Musharraf and now Bay Nazir Bhutto..they protect the life of their dogs but kill us as if we are worse than dogs. Your scientific developments and technologies didn't give life to the poor Japanese whom you attacked with nuclear weapons, innocent Vietnamese whom you butchered as if they were sacrifice animals, unarmed civilians of Iraq and Afghanistan whom you are everyday killing indiscriminately...
your techonologies are not giving them life, instead taking their lives away. You are giving the world more weapons and bloodshed than any good you can give from your so called 'education' and 'literacy'.

I dont know how you're the spokesman for every single muslim in the entire world. There are over a billion and a half, can you really speak with the voice of them all?

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

If education makes the likes of Bush and the rest of the kafir world, then sorry, no one wants that education. We want the 'right of life' more than education. Education is not necessary to live. The Americans, the British, their fellows - who are they? They are 'animals in the form of humans', in fact worse than animals. They have given more destruction to the world than scientific developments and by the way who the hell wants any scientific developments and technologies if he doesn't have the right to live. Your western terrorists are destroying whole of the Muslims world, at some places physically and at others 'intellectually', where they don't want to invade e.g in Pakistan, they impose their 'Agents', the likes of Musharraf and now Bay Nazir Bhutto..they protect the life of their dogs but kill us as if we are worse than dogs. Your scientific developments and technologies didn't give life to the poor Japanese whom you attacked with nuclear weapons, innocent Vietnamese whom you butchered as if they were sacrifice animals, unarmed civilians of Iraq and Afghanistan whom you are everyday killing indiscriminately...
your techonologies are not giving them life, instead taking their lives away. You are giving the world more weapons and bloodshed than any good you can give from your so called 'education' and 'literacy'.

I don't think you can blame education, whether religious or secular, for the misdeeds of anyone. Be it Bush, or anyone who deliberately and unjustifiably targets innocents.

To call people "animals in the form of humans" is probably why anyone would think there's a problem with education in the Muslim world. While I agree with the sentiments expressed in your posts, I don't think it is fair to blame it on education, be it a secular Western education, or a religious one. We all read the same Qur'an; it's just that people interpret it and understand it differently. The same could be said about others, who read all sorts of texts and understand it and apply it differently.

Besides, if you hate the American or British administration, then you're not alone. But if you're going to just indiscriminately express hate towards all people, then you'll find yourself standing alone. Unconditional hate is not the message of Islam, just like unconditional forgiveness is not the message of Islam either.

[psychoteddybear]

This is good to me. As long as the Turks continue to move away from being influenced by Europe and the US. And do things on their own. They are capable of this. Inshallah khair.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

well just to make it officially clear, the AK party in turkey never declared themselves to be islamist. they have always maintained that they are a conservative party that has the support of the religious right. Plenty of conservative parties in secular nations do the exact same thing. It could be India, it could be germany, the UK and even here in the u.s. the repulican party has the backing of the religiouis right, and even one of thier own fundamentalists is currently sitting in the white house.

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

well just to make it officially clear, the AK party in turkey never declared themselves to be islamist. they have always maintained that they are a conservative party that has the support of the religious right. Plenty of conservative parties in secular nations do the exact same thing. It could be India, it could be germany, the UK and even here in the u.s. the repulican party has the backing of the religiouis right, and even one of thier own fundamentalists is currently sitting in the white house.

Yeah but kuffar call everyone "Islamist" if one is not willing to polish their boots in the name of 'secularism'.

[FMROMMEL]

Originally Posted by IbnAbdullah

If education makes the likes of Bush and the rest of the kafir world, then sorry, no one wants that education. We want the 'right of life' more than education. Education is not necessary to live. The Americans, the British, their fellows - who are they? They are 'animals in the form of humans', in fact worse than animals. They have given more destruction to the world than scientific developments and by the way who the hell wants any scientific developments and technologies if he doesn't have the right to live. Your western terrorists are destroying whole of the Muslims world, at some places physically and at others 'intellectually', where they don't want to invade e.g in Pakistan, they impose their 'Agents', the likes of Musharraf and now Bay Nazir Bhutto..they protect the life of their dogs but kill us as if we are worse than dogs. Your scientific developments and technologies didn't give life to the poor Japanese whom you attacked with nuclear weapons, innocent Vietnamese whom you butchered as if they were sacrifice animals, unarmed civilians of Iraq and Afghanistan whom you are everyday killing indiscriminately...
your techonologies are not giving them life, instead taking their lives away. You are giving the world more weapons and bloodshed than any good you can give from your so called 'education' and 'literacy'.

Hey, the next time you get sick......don't go to a doctor, don't take any medication.Both of those require EDUCATION.

The POOR JAPANIES ATTACKED THE US FIRST. On top of that they were responsible for the torture and death of millions of people before the US bombed them.

It seems that most of the destruction and deaths in IRAQ right now are from MUSLIMS on other MUSLIMS.

Those INNOCENT VEITNAMESE were responsable for millions of deaths after the US left.

I see way more MUSLIMS killling other MUSLIMS all around the world as of late than anything else.

Maybe you should think about getting a frontal LABOTOMY because you seem to be able to read and write and both those require EDUCATION.