[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

If Muslim's are truley worried about morality in society, then education is the key. Dont rely on the govt to help you with that, dont rely on the govt to teach your kids morality, only you can do that.

Implementing Shariah is more than having moral police (which I disagree with). It's having the hudood implemented. A murderer should be murdered; a thief should have his hand cut-off; a rapist should be executed; an adulterer should be flogged ... etc.

Besides, the whole idea of flogging someone who consumes alcohol came from sayyidna Umar (rAa), if I remember correctly. The Prophet (sAaw) said, "You are all guardians, and you are all responsible for your subjects." He specified the responsible ruler, the caring husband, the faithful wife and the trusted helper. Allah (swt) had also called this ummah "the best" because it took up the duty of enjoining good and forbidding evil.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

i think what aryan brough up is shariah implemenation within the context of the law itself. And i dont agree with many people who believe that the Shariah should be implemented as the law of the land, because it violates the core belief of Islam that there is no compulsion in religion. Not only that, only your creator can stand in judgement over you, not other men. So the morality laws cannot be enforced according to Islam because only your creator can pass judgement over you in the after life. When the government step's in and starts interpretating Islam for everyone else, and then decides that we will implement shariah in the way that we intreprete it is not only wrong but its also dangerous. I firmly believe that the crooked politicians, and crooked governments should stay out of the business of religion altogether and the government should stay out of the mosques altogether. If they want to fund building a mosque thats fine, just stay out of its affairs period. I think the recent attack by Gen Mushy on the Lal Masjid is a prime example of that.

While im no supporter or believer of thier views or their sect, i still believe that they have a right to peacefully practice thier faith without government interference.

Although from the video i have seen on ptv, the people holed up in the lal masjid were armed to the teeth with grenades, rocket launchers and machine guns.

Just because a politician screams Islam, doesnt mean he has the interests of muslims or Islam at heart. and the last thing we want is a politician issuing fatwa's on what is halal and what is haram. Let people practice Islam on how they feel, and the govt should stay out of it altogether. Otherwise, look at Egypt, they decide who get's to become the head Imam of Al-Azhar. In Saudi Arabia, the govt decides who is the head Imam at the Haram Al Sharif, and this is wrong, the people who attend these institutions should decide on who leads thier prayers, and who they seek for guidance, not the government.

If Muslim's are truley worried about morality in society, then education is the key. Dont rely on the govt to help you with that, dont rely on the govt to teach your kids morality, only you can do that.

When you understand the basics of Shari'ah then you should talk about it in a critical light. However from your comments its clear you don't.

I urge you to enlighten yourself rather than relying on the actions of those whom claim to be acting the way of Islam. Learn more obout Islam before criticising aspects of the deen.

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by Revert

When you understand the basics of Shari'ah then you should talk about it in a critical light. However from your comments its clear you don't.

I urge you to enlighten yourself rather than relying on the actions of those whom claim to be acting the way of Islam. Learn more obout Islam before criticising aspects of the deen.

yea but the guy does have a good point

islam is grand and expansive, a political entity can only constrain it

besides, there's too many differences among the muslims and if all the different muslims do decide to agree on certain laws and implement just those, there's a good chance you'll end up with a near secular democracy.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

besides, there's too many differences among the muslims and if all the different muslims do decide to agree on certain laws and implement just those, there's a good chance you'll end up with a near secular democracy.

Dude, we're not talking about setting up a Khilafa here for you to worry about all the differences among Muslims. Implementing Shariah as per the official madhhab of each state is good enough.

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Dude, we're not talking about setting up a Khilafa here for you to worry about all the differences among Muslims. Implementing Shariah as per the official madhhab of each state is good enough.

i got nothing against khilafa, i'm pro khilafa

so if a state wants to follow a wahabi/salafi "madhab" where shias are like kafirs, then?

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

i got nothing against khilafa, i'm pro khilafa

so if a state wants to follow a wahabi/salafi "madhab" where shias are like kafirs, then?

That's when it becomes valid to reject it and protest against it. Turkey is not like that.

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

That's when it becomes valid to reject it and protest against it. Turkey is not like that.

reject what...shariah? islam? khilafa?

thats a drastic reaction. Its a bad idea to reject your creed because of things going wrong.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

reject what...shariah? islam? khilafa?

thats a drastic reaction. Its a bad idea to reject your creed because of things going wrong.

Don't be silly. I meant reject the government and its twisted version of Shariah.

I don't think an Islamic government would discriminate against Shias, which is why Saudi Arabia and Iran aren't exactly "Islamic". Just because you implement a few hudood doesn't make you an Islamic government. I'd say oppressing Muslims for the sake of the kuffar is worse than letting a murderer get away with his crime.

[bluey]

I'd say oppressing Muslims for the sake of the kuffar is worse than letting a murderer get away with his crime.

Exactly. And sadly enough, majority of the leaders of the Muslim World do this to a certain extent. I'd hate to be in their position though, considering they'll be asked about all those who were under them by Allah subhanna wa ta'ala.

Insha'Allah I hope things get better for Turkish Muslims.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

yea but the guy does have a good point

islam is grand and expansive, a political entity can only constrain it

besides, there's too many differences among the muslims and if all the different muslims do decide to agree on certain laws and implement just those, there's a good chance you'll end up with a near secular democracy.

I agree to a point. Thats why when implememting shari'ah as per the Islamic model set forth by Allah (swt) and revealed to his Prophet Muhammad (saws) this type of this should and could be avoided.

However being as most leaders have ego problems and cannot accept true Islam into their hearts we will never get the perfect example of a Shari'ah ruled community as per the example f the first generations of Muslims.

I love you bro because we have a similar outlook, I wish all Muslims were as accomodating as yourself.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Don't be silly. I meant reject the government and its twisted version of Shariah.

I don't think an Islamic government would discriminate against Shias, which is why Saudi Arabia and Iran aren't exactly "Islamic". Just because you implement a few hudood doesn't make you an Islamic government. I'd say oppressing Muslims for the sake of the kuffar is worse than letting a murderer get away with his crime.

I agree with you, an ideal government would not discriminate against different sects, they would draw them close and learn about the differences in order to come together as one Ummah. I pray for the day this happens inshaAllaah.

Shari'ah isn't limited to one group, its an all encompassing set of principles, however the different sects/groups refuse to acknowledge this fact in lew of splitting the Ummah.

[Aryan_]

You can't have your cake and eat it. If you believe muslims who drink, fornicate or decide not to be muslims anymore should be punished or stopped from doing so you can't claim you believe in freedom of choice, or that islamic governed society is a free one.

The only freedom it allows is the right to live an islamic lifestyle.

And I wasn't talking about non-muslims, they form a small percentage of Turkey's population.

[Arabesque]

The same applies to your argument, Aryan.

You (not you personally) can't claim to be Muslim and then go about breaking the rules. You either believe or you don't believe.

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

The same applies to your argument, Aryan.

You (not you personally) can't claim to be Muslim and then go about breaking the rules. You either believe or you don't believe.

Damn..you're up late brother.

A Muslim is someone who submits to Allah and believes Mohammed (upon him be peace) to be the last Prophet. How closely the Muslim can abide by the rules is to be judged by Allah on the day of judgement. But Islam isn't just for the rightly guided. Otherwise what would be the point in redemption or Allah's mercy?

[IbnAbdullah]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Looks like the people of Turkey have decided being a developed and free society isn't that great and they want to return to the days of being a handchopping middle eastern nation.

Oh well, Turkey isn't really a true turkic nation anyway.

Turks have realised that the slavery of kuffar is not going to help them, the Europen Union and their people have been 'insulting' them for ages and this is also a 'good lesson' to you if you take any, that the 'slavery of kuffar' isn't going to do any good to you, they will always treat you as a 'paki'. Calling yourself a 'secular' wouldn't make you 'better' than them.

And I don't mind if your hands are chopped in an Islamic country where you commit theft, because I'm not a 'thief' and want to see thieves and criminals brought to justice.

[MossadConspiracy]

Turkey is doing well, theres no need for them to try any experiments that could destroy their society

All they have to do is allow more freedom of religion and freedom of expression. The majority of Turks are not in favor of having a new dynasty of Ottoman Emperors, and that sounds like a very radical solution for some problems that are pretty minor and are well on the way to being solved. I can see a place like Saudi Arabia having some big bearded guy with a fanciful title like Amir Al-Mumineen or Khalifa taking power after a violent coup. A movement like that would have alot of traction in Saudi Arabia and alot of popular support too, but Turkey is very different.

ws