[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Islamists are much worse

That's really wrong of you to say. I don't understand why a Muslim would not support a pro-Islamic government.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Lets say a group of nazi Americans who had been convicted of crimes and hate speech against blacks, Muslims and other coloureds have reunion and found a new party which claims to renounce the said views and they only seek "moderate" implementation of anti-immigrant laws. They also claim they love and respect Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. Would you believe them or engage them without caution?

i dont think any of these guys were convicted of crimes or hate speech against anybody, they are mostly successful technocrats who have led the country well, which is why they continue to get votes. islamic rhetoric without successful policies always fails

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

That's really wrong of you to say. I don't understand why a Muslim would not support a pro-Islamic government.

I support a politically secular democracy where anyone is able to practice their religion as they see fit. That's what exists in Turkey which is far more muslim than most "islamic" countries. Anyone who wishes to upset the boat clearly has underhand ambitions.

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

i dont think any of these guys were convicted of crimes or hate speech against anybody, they are mostly successful technocrats who have led the country well, which is why they continue to get votes. islamic rhetoric without successful policies always fails

Their leader for one. Most of the senior figures have been members of banned Islamist parties in the past and a few have been convicted of hate crimes.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

I support a politically secular democracy where anyone is able to practice their religion as they see fit. That's what exists in Turkey which is far more muslim than most "islamic" countries. Anyone who wishes to upset the boat clearly has underhand ambitions.

The hijab is still banned in universities and government offices.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Their leader for one. Most of the senior figures have been members of banned Islamist parties in the past and a few have been convicted of hate crimes.

who was convicted of hate crimes??? what kind of hate crimes? Honestly I have no idea, its not a rhetorical question. But if this person Abdullah Gul was convicted of hanging or burning somebody for being jewish or throwing a firebomb into a nightclub then obviously i would have a different view of him. Or if he was a member of a group that was directly involved in activities like that.

Being a member of a banned party by itself is no big deal. Political parties shouldnt be banned to begin with. For the record, nazi parties arent banned in the USA

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

The hijab is still banned in universities and government offices.

Islam is a lot more than wearing a hijab.

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

who was convicted of hate crimes??? what kind of hate crimes? Honestly I have no idea, its not a rhetorical question. But if this person Abdullah Gul was convicted of hanging or burning somebody for being jewish or throwing a firebomb into a nightclub then obviously i would have a different view of him. Or if he was a member of a group that was directly involved in activities like that.

Being a member of a banned party by itself is no big deal. Political parties shouldnt be banned to begin with. For the record, nazi parties arent banned in the USA

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Turkey's charismatic pro-Islamic leader

He was convicted for reciting an islamist 'call-to-arms' poem during an audience with Muslims.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Islam is a lot more than wearing a hijab.

Hijab is one way of practicing Islam freely. You don't have that in Turkey.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Turkey's charismatic pro-Islamic leader

He was convicted for reciting an islamist 'call-to-arms' poem during an audience with Muslims.

haha, gimme a break dude

[Jamroll]

He's "Islamist" because his wife wears a headscarf? lol.

I think the situation in Turkey is unlikely to change unless the upper echelons of the Turkish Army is either changed to include more Muslims (or these uber-secularists are removed/retired).

[GOTFIVEONIT]

secularism is a joke. even in India, secularism has done nothing to offer freedom of religion. go ask the muslims of gujarat how free they are to practice Islam. go ask the Muslims in bombay how free they are while living under the thumb of bal thackery's goons. even in Hyderabad our own mosque, one of the biggest mosques in India was bombed.

And secularism in Muslim countries itself is a joke. half the countries in the middle east are secular governments. they are nothing more than military run governments who abuse thier people while robbing them blind.

secularism is no garuntee to freedom of religion or freedom of worship.

If anything, I admire the AK party in Turkey, as i see them as a true and good example for other Islamic political parties throughout the Muslim world to emulate.

Im no fan of fundamentalists like Jamaat Islami in Pakistan, or other parties and groups similar to them, but the AK party is a very good example for these parties in other muslim countries to follow. instead of condemning them we should be praising them.

Just because Abdullah Gul's wife wears a hijab doesnt mean that they are going to start chopping people's hands off.

If secularism means athiesm then we shouldnt support it at all. Why are hijab's banned from Government property in Turkey? What's wrong if Mosques recieve public funds for thier maintainence and use? What's wrong if Islam is taught in publically funded schools in Muslim lands? What's wrong if the Government subsidizes Haj? Whats wrong if the Government uses the Islamic divorce code in courts, versus the secular codes? Whats wrong if the government deducts the zakat from people's paychecks?

now the last one can be arguable, since it is in the end a choice, meaning you cant be forced to do it, you have to choose to want to pay the zakat - or answer to your maker in the afterlife.

But that's where secularism gets it wrong. secularism has brought nothing but socialistic ideas making countries dwell even deeper in poverty. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and his pakistan people's party is a prime example of this and his version of 'islamic socialism'.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

after all, if Aryan is such a die hard secularist, then how do you argue for a separation of kashmir from India and joining pakistan on the basis of religion?

that's communalism, secularists would argue.

why even the creation of Pakistan itself can even be argued if your arguments are solely on secularism.

[Jamroll]

The irony that I as a Muslim am freer to pratice my Islam in Britain, than a fellow Muslim can in Turkey, a Muslim majority country, once the seat of one the greatest Muslim empires... The mind boggles.

[Gulcin]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Islam is a lot more than wearing a hijab.

and secularism is a lot more than banning it.

incomprehensible.

when there's a number of people suffering from the past-governmental policies, I would never call it freedom. surprisingly (!) this was (is?) the Turkey's case, but obviously changing for the better I can see through personal experience. now people can wander around without hearing the hate speech they used to do, if u ever tasted what Im saying u must know how it feels like. and if not, then you're the free but definitely not the others. if u become that other one day, dont complain cuz there wont be able any shoulders to cry on.

the upper echelons of the Turkish Army is either changed to include more Muslims (or these uber-secularists are removed/retired

thats a dream for now but beneficial to keep in mind that nothing actually is impossible.

new spot on army's stance towards the new president: in the ceremony for the military medical school today, the full general and the rest of the service was observed not to greet the president when standing up for the stage and sitting down, which used to be the case in all events in the past. yet some other small details led to the interpretations of the army's distance.

[Aryan_]

For everyone who claims that it's the secularisms who are against freedom and islamists in favour of it, answer this.

Would islamic law allow the freedom to appear in public without a hijab (let alone universities or government buildings)?
Would islamic law allow people to drink alcohol (responsibly or irresponsibly)?
Would islamic law allow people to have sex outside marriage (responsibly or irresponsibly)?
Would islamic law allow men and women to mix freely?
Would islamic law criminalise homosexuality?
Would islamic law allow the freedom to not believe in parts of islam or be an atheist?

And so on. You can claim what you like about islamic law, but there's no way you can pretend that islamists are in "favour" of freedom and secularists against it. Sharia law is against freedom....that's the whole purpose of it.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

For everyone who claims that it's the secularisms who are against freedom and islamists in favour of it, answer this.

Would islamic law allow the freedom to appear in public without a hijab (let alone universities or government buildings)?
Would islamic law allow people to drink alcohol (responsibly or irresponsibly)?
Would islamic law allow people to have sex outside marriage (responsibly or irresponsibly)?
Would islamic law allow men and women to mix freely?
Would islamic law criminalise homosexuality?
Would islamic law allow the freedom to not believe in parts of islam or be an atheist?

And so on. You can claim what you like about islamic law, but there's no way you can pretend that islamists are in "favour" of freedom and secularists against it. Sharia law is against freedom....that's the whole purpose of it.

it depends on whose interpretations. believe it or not you have shariah law in Pakistan. You also have it in plenty of Muslim countries. What you are qouting is simply the wahabi zealots of saudi and other countries. the AK party doesnt represent those views. They are no different than any other conservative party in any western country operates, including the UK which relies heavily on the votes from the religious right. My only problem with secularism is that many seem to believe that secularism equates athiesm. The U.S. is supposidly a secular country, yet the name of God is found on everything, including the dollar bill.

There was a great article about this on the bbc website called "the many faces of shariah" which showed how its implemented mildly in pakistan to strictly in saudi. i cant find it anymore but i would post it if i could. its from several years ago actually.