[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

That's true, but only to a certain extent. The US is concerned with getting cheap oil for as long as it can, but it still has massive reserves in its own backyard - Alberta has the second largest amount -approx. 180 bb - of proven reserves in the world, after Saudi Arabia, which has about 230 bb..

And that 180 bb is only what's economically extractable at this point in time, which is equal to about 10 percent. Alberta's actual estimated oil reserves are around 1.7 to 2.3 trillion barrels. Alberta also has about 90 trillion cubic feet of proven natural gas, with about another 500 tcf estimated. And although China's made several deals with Albertan energy producers so far, Alberta's still interested in selling to the US far more.

The US still has a lot to go on, even if all Mideastern oil dried up completely.

Yeah but is that enough to meet current and forecasted needs? If the reserves and production are not enough to meet those needs, even a slight decrease in production will throw the volatile oil market into a tizzy, which will have disasterous consequences. We need to develop new fuel technologies.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I don't know, MC. You have the right to say or feel what you want, and so do I.

I know, i was just saying

Originally Posted by Arabesque

You think the Americans saved a lot more Muslims than they killed? Ok, if you think so. You can ignore the proxy wars they fight, and the oppressive governments they support, and the toxic weapons the used here and there ... you can ignore all this if you wish, simply because you haven't experienced it first-hand, and alhamdulillah you haven't. And I sincerely pray that you don't. I pray that no Muslim ever experiences such barbarianism.

no, i'm saying that even if you take the highest estimate of casualties for every war that America has ever fought against muslims directly or by proxy (and the total is high but not astonishingly so), Americans have saved more muslim lives than those numbers. For example, Jonas Salk by himself has saved tens or hundreds of millions of muslims. Many more than all of the casualties in all those wars combined. And thats just one American. The stable forms of insulin that are used now were mostly developed by an American pharma company called Eli Lilly, and every type 1 diabetic in the world and many type 2 diabetics owe their lives to those drugs.Thats millions more in the muslim world. btw, most of the drugs that are used to control type 2 diabetes were either developed by American companies in the USA or by European companies in the USA. Much of the oil refining, energy generation, agricultural, industrial, and transport developments of the last century that allowed modern societies to develop have come from the United States. Many people owe their lives to these developments because without them, populations could not possibly be as high as they are today. America was the primary donor for the eradication of smallpox, which traditionally was endemic and extremely deadly in many muslim countries. Many millions of muslim lives were saved when the WHO eradicated smallpox (lead by an American doctor and teams of American doctors).

The list actually can continue on and on with technology and medical advancements, safety procedures, institutional developments and protocols, public health measures, equipment, architectural and engineering developments, etc. All of which have made an impact on the world to allow for a population of 6 billion to inhabit it and have saved many billions of lives over the century (probably a significant portion of its inhabitants over the last century, based on medical advances alone). Many others who are not American have made a huge impact on this world and have contributed to all of these advances, there are some areas where Americans are not the primary actors. But in many, many areas, Americans have been, and its had a massive positive impact on the world, its pretty undeniable. And when you compare all of the muslims who are alive because of these things and the ones that have been killed in Iraq over the decades, the Arab Israeli wars, Afghanistan, and whichever other ones you decide to include.. the numbers cannot compare

Of course, its possible all of these advances would have come without the United States of America, its also possible that all of the muslims America has killed (or more) would have been killed by some others in America's absence. That kind of speculation is meaningless (but fun)

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I hope the USA is reduced to just another country on the map, and it will insha'Allah. You want to be a world police, prepare to take a fatal bullet.

probably not in our lifetime, but anything can happen. allahu alam

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Yeah but is that enough to meet current and forecasted needs? If the reserves and production are not enough to meet those needs, even a slight decrease in production will throw the volatile oil market into a tizzy, which will have disasterous consequences. We need to develop new fuel technologies.

The current 180 bb of Albertan oil alone are enough to meet Canada's needs entirely for the next 400 years. Now, if that were shared amongst USA and Canada, that would be enough for about 50 years. The rest of the estimated 1.5 trillion barrels would meet USA and Canada's needs for about 300 years, projected estimates. But as you can imagine, its not all so simple, cut and dry.

And yeah, I totally agree that new and sustainable energy sources must be developed. Some of these technologies already exist, but unfortunately the paychecks of some men depend on maintaining the status quo, so its not likely these new technologies will see much widespread use and acceptance anytime soon.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Yeah but is that enough to meet current and forecasted needs? If the reserves and production are not enough to meet those needs, even a slight decrease in production will throw the volatile oil market into a tizzy, which will have disasterous consequences. We need to develop new fuel technologies.

if nothing is developed to replace oil, then the whole world will go crazy after a while. Whether thats 50 years, 200 years, or whatever.. eventually its going to run out, and it wont matter anymore if America is better than China or if Israel defeats the Arabs, humans will die the way bacteria die when their dish runs out of nutrients

But i'm sure there will be new technologies. Theres so much money there, somebody is bound to develop something, iA

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Yes, and I'm not disputing that point. I doubt China and America will ever come to serious blows with each other.

Although as the whole world can plainly see, having the technological advantage over an opposing force hasn't really helped America much at all in the past few years.

yeah, thats a good point

[Arabesque]

MC,

It is not the medicine that cures. Allah (swt) cures.

I thought we were talking about the American government? I'm sure scientists from the United States developed all sorts of useful inventions, but how is that relevant here? Are you saying that it's OK for the government to kill so many Muslims, because guess what, there are other Americans handing out the shrouds and the coffins at the same time? Nice charity.

No seriously, even the drug-industry is making money out of illnesses. It's not like they're giving out the medicine for free. But nevertheless, I'll say we recognise their contributions. Now at some point in the past, Muslims were advanced, and I'm sure they too have made useful contributions which saved many lives.

But I still don't understand the argument. I still think the American government killed so many Muslims. I'm not talking about the ordinary American people here, in case you thought I was. I'm sure I specifically said, "I hate the government." Did I even mention the people?

They're dumb. Ok, I admit.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

MC,

It is not the medicine that cures. Allah (swt) cures.

yeah, but Allah is also the one who causes bombs to explode and bullets to hit their targets, right?

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I thought we were talking about the American government? I'm sure scientists from the United States developed all sorts of useful inventions, but how is that relevant here? Are you saying that it's OK for the government to kill so many Muslims, because guess what, there are other Americans handing out the shrouds and the coffins at the same time? Nice charity.

No, I was talking about America as a society. Of course the government is a big part of it (and like I've said the US government played a key role in wiping out smallpox, among many other things). But America also includes the people, the culture, the institutions, the businesses. Its an entire society, one of the most prominent ones in the world. The government stems from the society and the society is effected by the government. The way I see it, you cant separate the two, beyond saying that you hate Bush and his crowd without hating every single individual American person.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

No seriously, even the drug-industry is making money out of illnesses. It's not like they're giving out the medicine for free. But nevertheless, I'll say we recognise their contributions. Now at some point in the past, Muslims were advanced, and I'm sure they too have made useful contributions which saved many lives.

There are many motives for why various things were developed. Sometimes altruistic, sometimes not. The end result, within my argument, is that all these hundreds of millions and billions of lives were saved. If the stockholders at Eli Lilly got rich from it too, then its win-win.

And of course muslims have made many very important contributions, and continue to make them. I dont know why you brought that up, I never denied it. We should be proud of everything we've given to the world (AND continue to give). I was just pointing out that American society has done alot for humanity. Probably more than most (or all) other countries currently. That does not get recognized by anti-american people very much, or at all.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

But I still don't understand the argument. I still think the American government killed so many Muslims. I'm not talking about the ordinary American people here, in case you thought I was. I'm sure I specifically said, "I hate the government." Did I even mention the people?

They're dumb. Ok, I admit.

Like I said, America is an entire society. You can either like America, or dislike America. Within America there are alot of components- the government, individual people, the religious communities, the companies, the academics, the pop culture, the high culture, the minority cultures, and so on.. each of those individual things is connected to all the others. Of course one can have feelings about any of these elements individually, but in the end they are all part of a whole

I understand the point you are making. You dont like America's policies, and I know the specifics about the policies that you dont like. The point that I was making is that America, as a society, has done far more good than harm for the world, including the muslim world. We can work towards making it ALL good, rather than just a balance of good vs bad.

ws

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

yeah, but Allah is also the one who causes bombs to explode and bullets to hit their targets, right?

No. All goodness is from Allah (swt). All evil is from people.

Like one person had said, death is not caused by the bombs, it's caused by the angel of death. But allow me to remind you, the reason Allah (swt) replaced the previous inhabitants of earth (Ibless and his like) with humans is because of the bloodshed and destruction they caused.

The Prophet (sAaw) had also said, (and I don't have time to think up a translation), ma anzalla Allahu min daa2, ella anzala lahu dawa2. I've never come across a hadith on bombs and bullets, though.

[MossadConspiracy]

salam

this is semantics. I concede to your argument. Allah doesnt cause the bombs to explode. But it is in His power to stop them from exploding, because everything is within his power. Yet they explode. Maybe He doesnt cause the explosion of the bomb, but he doesnt stop it either. Except in the causes when the bombs DO fail to explode.

or maybe i'm wrong. In any case, this is a huge can of worms, one that i am not qualified to talk about, and is also not really something that I like to talk about (because i could get sins by saying dumb stuff without knowing it)

my main point is that America has done much more good than harm to the Muslim world and to the world as a whole, but people either miss it or choose not to pay attention to it

ws

[Kona_Silat]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

MC,

It is not the medicine that cures. Allah (swt) cures.
...

That's nonsense. It is the medicine that cures. Haven't you heard of the hadith about the tying the camel and then making dua.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by Kona_Silat

That's nonsense. It is the medicine that cures. Haven't you heard of the hadith about the tying the camel and then making dua.

but who created the medicine?

and if isreal 'defates' arabs, then look at what happened to them, not once, but twice in lebanon? look at who defeated who.

[Kona_Silat]

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

but who created the medicine?

and if isreal 'defates' arabs, then look at what happened to them, not once, but twice in lebanon? look at who defeated who.

Israel was defeated once.