[Revert]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

That is actually a good point. Hmmm....

Well, Canada, Pakistan, etc. are all options.

How would one get into Canada for an extended period? You would need a Visa. Pkaland is not and option for me..i'd probably go disappear in the Balkans.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Revert

I'd rather not go to an American prison..theya re too obbsessed with prison rape.

You generally only get raped if you come off like you're weak or if you're a pedophile/rapist.

Also, I don't think they put conscientious objectors in max security lockdowns..

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Revert

I was 25..so i had no choice..

realisticly speaking though, even if you're drafted (unlikely) by the time you would actually serve you would be too old to go on the front lines. You would probably go to support services, or be trained as a medic.

And yeah, going to prison in the US is probably more haram than serving your time in the military.

Mandatory military service is a difficult issue. Even the article Hanbali posted, it's not a black and white "if you do it, you're automatically a kaafir" kind of thing. It's not like you chose, you were forced. Not everyone has the option of leaving either. If you're faced with that situation, best to leave it to Allah (swt) as to whether or not your life time of Islam is negated by something which was out of your control.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

You generally only get raped if you come off like you're weak or if you're a pedophile/rapist.

Also, I don't think they put conscientious objectors in max security lockdowns..

Muslim conscientious objectors probably get Gitmo'd...

I am not taking chances...i'm going to Cuba..

[Revert]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

realisticly speaking though, even if you're drafted (unlikely) by the time you would actually serve you would be too old to go on the front lines. You would probably go to support services, or be trained as a medic.

And yeah, going to prison in the US is probably more haram than serving your time in the military.

Mandatory military service is a difficult issue. Even the article Hanbali posted, it's not a black and white "if you do it, you're automatically a kaafir" kind of thing. It's not like you chose, you were forced. Not everyone has the option of leaving either. If you're faced with that situation, best to leave it to Allah (swt) as to whether or not your life time of Islam is negated by something which was out of your control.

Even Mandatory Consription can be avioded by being a concientious objector.

But yeah if I was called i'd be too old and fat too do anything of use..i'd be a Janitor or something..

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Revert

Even Mandatory Consription can be avioded by being a concientious objector.

But yeah if I was called i'd be too old and fat too do anything of use..i'd be a Janitor or something..

Not necessarily. Even if you choose to object, they might not accept your argument and force you to serve anyway. Like I said, you can try. If you don't try, that's another matter.

[ShahRukh]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Going to Canada to get out of the draft isn't a very realistic option.



Well, at least you can try. If you do end up getting drafted, my step dad says your best chance is to be the start of basic training because then you will make yourself so valuable they won't send you to the front lines. He got drafted in the Vietnam days, did incredibly well in basic training, and spent the whole war in Korea and the Italian Riviera.

That's pretty clever of him ...


My cousin is literally stuck in the US Army...He's half Paki and Half spanish ...became atheist in early college years and joined the military to get free uni education. he spent 8 months in the streets of Baghdad looking for insurgents leading his platoon of soldiers...2 weeks before his return, he got shot by a sniper fire that ripped through his shoulder muscle and a lower neck...the US Army gave him some sort of a medal of honour with massive promotion...to keep him in the military

Once he came back from Iraq, his religious views changed so much that he believes the war is illegal and started believing in God...pray that Allah guides him i'A

Even he thought of ways to quit the Army...but now he just cant...they army monitors him 24*7, gave him a car with private security...and all...and sending him back pretty soon

US Army is just beyond evil...

[Hanbali]

Originally Posted by Chotoomotoo

....

As for those whom the angels cause to die while they sin against their souls, they (the angels) shall say: "In what state were you?" They shall reply: "We were weak and oppressed in the land." They (the angels) shall say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (from evil)?" Such men will find their abode in Hell, what an evil refuge!

(Quran, 4:97)

[Revert]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Not necessarily. Even if you choose to object, they might not accept your argument and force you to serve anyway. Like I said, you can try. If you don't try, that's another matter.

If they allow Jehovahs Witnesses to get off then they should allow any religion to get off.

They can't force someone to serve if they shoot themself in the foot..would i do that? You're damn skippy I would.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they shall say: "In what state were ye?" They shall reply: "We were weak and oppressed in the land." They (the angels) shall say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (from evil)?" Such men will find their abode in Hell, what an evil refuge!

(Quran, 4:97)

You know, that works well for you, who comes from a very rich family and has the OPTION of moving. Not everyone can. I don't think it's as black and white as you're trying to make it. Allah (swt) knows best. If you TRY to get out of it, and can't, then you never know, inshallah Allah (swt) will forgive you, if indeed it's really wrong.

You tell me, what is some poor ghetto Muslim kid who was born in the US and has no funds or passport for going to Canada going to do if they get drafted, and their objection is denied. Do you really think Allah (swt) is going to condemn them to hell? Do you really think that Allah (swt) is that unjust? I'm talking about when someone has tried, and been unable to change their situation. That ayat, to me, speaks of someone who never tried to change their situation.

Do you see what I'm trying to say?

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Revert

If they allow Jehovahs Witnesses to get off then they should allow any religion to get off.

They can't force someone to serve if they shoot themself in the foot..would i do that? You're damn skippy I would.

Muslims aren't Jehovas Witness. I think you would have to shoot your leg off before they would let you get out of service . I'm not sure if the sin of shooting your leg off wouldn't be worse than temporary military service, especially IF that service was actually for a just cause (like getting rid of Hitler or something). You'd have to ask a scholar about that.

(course I personally think that the US would put Muslims in camps like they did the Japanese in WWII before they would let us serve in an armed conflict against a Muslim state)

[ShotgunMessiah]

Originally Posted by Revert

If they allow Jehovahs Witnesses to get off then they should allow any religion to get off.

They can't force someone to serve if they shoot themself in the foot..would i do that? You're damn skippy I would.

The Allman Brothers did, Duane and Gregg. It worked, too.

[ChotooMotoo]

my dad only had one leg, he gets by pretty well. (I suggest shotting BELOW the knee btw)

[Revert]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Muslims aren't Jehovas Witness. I think you would have to shoot your leg off before they would let you get out of service . I'm not sure if the sin of shooting your leg off wouldn't be worse than temporary military service, especially IF that service was actually for a just cause (like getting rid of Hitler or something). You'd have to ask a scholar about that.

(course I personally think that the US would put Muslims in camps like they did the Japanese in WWII before they would let us serve in an armed conflict against a Muslim state)

You make a valid point there Chotoo, not all wars have been or will be against Muslim states. It would depend on the enemy, if they gave me a cushdy job like cooking or fixing air conditioners then I wouldn't be so oppossed to doing it.

BUt if they wanted me to pull a trigger in Iraq or Afghanistan, then I wouldn't.

I agree they would put us in camps or just Gitmo us. Whichever is cheaper.

[AmroodWaala]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

How about the Milgram experiments? Normal, everyday people were willing to do something that one could reasonably believe was killing someone - a person that they had already met and gotten to know a little, not an anonymous "face in the crowd". But, since they were being assured, and bullied in some cases, by an authority figure, most continued. And this was not in a setting where they perceived some threat from their "opponent". They were hurting someone (or believed they were) simply because an authority figure told them to.

That's why we need to oppose mandatory service because it will move people closer to situation faced by Milgram's participants where they wouldn't have much choice other than to obey an authority figur