[roberto]

Originally Posted by Wolfn

Wait, I thought it was against Islam to kill people? Because that is exactly what you do in the Army, not to mention the Army right now is massacering Muslims over in the Middle East.

So yeah, I'm sure there's something pretty haraam about joining the American military.

Currently most of the killing of Muslims in the Middle East and indeed world wide is by fellow Muslims

[Wolfn]

Originally Posted by roberto

Currently most of the killing of Muslims in the Middle East and indeed world wide is by fellow Muslims

S***. I try to get out of the conversation and Roberto pulls me back in.

[iliketofish]

Originally Posted by roberto

Currently most of the killing of Muslims in the Middle East and indeed world wide is by fellow Muslims

Yeah, darn those Israeli Muslims and the Muslims in Iraq who fly around in US fighter jets.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by iliketofish

Yeah, darn those Israeli Muslims and the Muslims in Iraq who fly around in US fighter jets.

I'd imagine he was referring to those who use explosive devices to target public places, and engage in internal fighting.


Anyway, I see where both sides of this argument are coming from. Shadha's saying kids these days take things for granted and could use the cold bucket of responsibility that compulsory military service could give them, along with a sense of ownership of their countries' institutions etc.

Others are focusing on how they see the US military (although we haven't mentioned Canada, or the UK) as the primary tool in a global campaign targetting Muslims.

I don't know where this argument has left to go.

[shadha]

roberto: Currently most of the killing of Muslims in the Middle East and indeed world wide is by fellow Muslims

Ain't that the truth.

Vari: Others are focusing on how they see the US military (although we haven't mentioned Canada, or the UK) as the primary tool in a global campaign targetting Muslims.

If they approached the manner how Bruinrab did, by saying- maybe we shouldn't have mandatory military service but instead have the option of participating in another mandatory service to the country- such as Teach for America etc. then it wouldn't have gotten blown up. I think that's a fair idea. If these folks would have said something like that OR something to the effect of not wanting to join a military that is not a military of God or whatever, then fine. All the power to you. But that didn't happen. You have one dumb schmuck after the next make baseless accusations and generalizations about over a million people. Then you have the notorious one rambling on, with all the chutzpah in the world, on who is and is not of the Ummah [and then is going to edit his posts and tell a boldface lie about it]. Then you have the random, duah curses against everyone and their mom.

They love to differentiate when it's Muslims killing Muslims but can't do the same when it's non-Muslim against Muslims. They also allowed their bias attitudes against America to cloud their judgement and they begin to act as if only American soldiers have ever raped a girl. As if no one has just recently heard of groups of Muslims raping Muslim girls all in the name of 'honor'. Please. This is a common occurrence that I really have little patience with.


shadha-

[pure]

Just my little input.

I don't know why any Muslim would consider joining the US Army, especially since they will automatically be sent to Iraq. There was this one teenager who had only several months training and was sent to Iraq and got killed.


The idea of joining the US army is controversial just because you have one side saying that it isn't lawful to fight in the name of democracy, and the other side saying that if you have the intention to stop the terrorism in the region then it's OK.

When we invaded Iraq, we came in for the wrong reasons. We fought, we killed for oil. Now the US is trying to do is stabilize the area. Iraq is completely disasterous, economically, socially and politcally. So would it be OK now? Maybe.

But when you want to do the right thing, you get an education, get a career and donate your money to charity/orphans and that's much more beneficial for you, mentally and spiritually, than to kill somebody.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by shadha

roberto: Currently most of the killing of Muslims in the Middle East and indeed world wide is by fellow Muslims

Ain't that the truth.

Vari: Others are focusing on how they see the US military (although we haven't mentioned Canada, or the UK) as the primary tool in a global campaign targetting Muslims.

If they approached the manner how Bruinrab did, by saying- maybe we shouldn't have mandatory military service but instead have the option of participating in another mandatory service to the country- such as Teach for America etc. then it wouldn't have gotten blown up. I think that's a fair idea. If these folks would have said something like that OR something to the effect of not wanting to join a military that is not a military of God or whatever, then fine. All the power to you. But that didn't happen. You have one dumb schmuck after the next make baseless accusations and generalizations about over a million people. Then you have the notorious one rambling on, with all the chutzpah in the world, on who is and is not of the Ummah [and then is going to edit his posts and tell a boldface lie about it]. Then you have the random, duah curses against everyone and their mom.

They love to differentiate when it's Muslims killing Muslims but can't do the same when it's non-Muslim against Muslims. They also allowed their bias attitudes against America to cloud their judgement and they begin to act as if only American soldiers have ever raped a girl. As if no one has just recently heard of groups of Muslims raping Muslim girls all in the name of 'honor'. Please. This is a common occurrence that I really have little patience with.


shadha-

Definitely agree... it's not about the military so much (although personally I think it's a good venue), but any sort of institution or project which removes kids from familiar cushy environments and sends them out to where their mettle is gonna be tested, while at the same time instilling a sense of community, responsibility, charity etc.

I have a lot of Mormon friends, and for all the jabs I take at them for their beliefs that I consider bizarre, they're a pretty... I dunno, 'above average' group of people. I think their missions tend to play a role in that... the fact they have to give up a year or two of their lives to learn another language, learn about another culture and work hard for what they see is a greater purpose. I'm all for the idea.

[iliketofish]

Originally Posted by Variable

I'd imagine he was referring to those who use explosive devices to target public places, and engage in internal fighting.

Definitely a problem, but those death toll numbers do not compare to extra-Muslim conflicts as he claimed.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by iliketofish

Definitely a problem, but those death toll numbers do not compare to extra-Muslim conflicts as he claimed.

They don't? What sources are you using?

[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by shadha

If they approached the manner how Bruinrab did, by saying- maybe we shouldn't have mandatory military service but instead have the option of participating in another mandatory service to the country- such as Teach for America etc. then it wouldn't have gotten blown up. I think that's a fair idea. If these folks would have said something like that OR something to the effect of not wanting to join a military that is not a military of God or whatever, then fine. All the power to you. But that didn't happen. You have one dumb schmuck after the next make baseless accusations and generalizations about over a million people. Then you have the notorious one rambling on, with all the chutzpah in the world, on who is and is not of the Ummah [and then is going to edit his posts and tell a boldface lie about it]. Then you have the random, duah curses against everyone and their mom.

I don't think that's fair. Generalising that the American army is completely evil or generalising that it is extremely helpful to the growth of young adults is the same. There is no difference, i'm not saying it's inaccurate but that you should respect the argument if you want your own view to be respected. Also, stating the obvious fact that Muslims aren't exactly moral in their warfare doesn't make a difference to the original argument. They're both wrong. The etiquettes of war were set a long time ago and as far as i'm concerned should still be valid?

Anyway, the American army is known for being one of the worst in the world. I certainly wouldn't want my child to be a walking talking testosterone, wife-beating junky. Yes, generalisation and probably unlikely, but a lot of American soldiers are like that and i don't favour the possibility of my own turning out that way. Similar to how i wouldn't want them to be narrow-minded extremists who see the world in two colours only. Favouring Bruinrabs option of an alternative, I'd send them to Africa, i know what it's like because i spent a huge chunk of my life there and show them how to kill an animal before you eat it, how to plough the land and reap benefits in the form of food and how to tend to animals. Giving children an awareness of life is different to stripping away all sensitivity to it.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Bluestar

I don't think that's fair. Generalising that the American army is completely evil or generalising that it is extremely helpful to the growth of young adults is the same. There is no difference, i'm not saying it's inaccurate but that you should respect the argument if you want your own view to be respected. Also, stating the obvious fact that Muslims aren't exactly moral in their warfare doesn't make a difference to the original argument. They're both wrong. The etiquettes of war were set a long time ago and as far as i'm concerned should still be valid?

Anyway, the American army is known for being one of the worst in the world. I certainly wouldn't want my child to be a walking talking testosterone, wife-beating junky. Yes, generalisation and probably unlikely, but a lot of American soldiers are like that and i don't favour the possibility of my own turning out that way. Similar to how i wouldn't want them to be narrow-minded extremists who see the world in two colours only. Favouring Bruinrabs option of an alternative, I'd send them to Africa, i know what it's like because i spent a huge chunk of my life there and show them how to kill an animal before you eat it, how to plough the land and reap benefits in the form of food and how to tend to animals. Giving children an awareness of life is different to stripping away all sensitivity to it.

i normally don't agree with you (to put it mildly), but this is definitely the best post youve ever written (aside from the fact that there's nothing wrong with testosterone)

consider yourself repped

[Revert]

Originally Posted by oFoShOuKnO

Bro, if the Nazis had their way the Muslims would be next after the Jews

Would they? How do you exlplain Hilters association with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the numerous Muslim Panzer divisions?

Either way I think MIlitary Conscription is wrong, you shouldn't force young boys to go to war. PSTD anyone?

In another time it worked well as warfare was very different than today. Also you would have a large percentage that wouldn't do it and try and run, which would bump up the costs even more.

The USA is already funnelling too much money to the war, something like this would cripple the economy.

PLus the MIlitary is just like prison..we all know what goes down in prison..

[shadha]

Bluestar: I don't think that's fair. Generalising that the American army is completely evil or generalising that it is extremely helpful to the growth of young adults is the same. There is no difference, i'm not saying it's inaccurate but that you should respect the argument if you want your own view to be respected. Also, stating the obvious fact that Muslims aren't exactly moral in their warfare doesn't make a difference to the original argument. They're both wrong. The etiquettes of war were set a long time ago and as far as i'm concerned should still be valid?

If either of us had made such a generalization about the military being void of any immorality, then you would have a very valid point. However, neither of us did. No one is saying that one atrocity isn't wrong compared to another, but the point I am making is that-- how is Wolfn going to post pictures and then him/along with others going to try to attribute that to over a million different people? They do not like when non-Muslims point the finger at ALL Muslims for the atrocities committed by a few, why then are they going to turn around and do it to others? Again, if they kept with the military of God excuse, I'd have no problem. My problem is them trying to declare over a million different people murders/rapists and damn them all to hell.


shadha-

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Revert

Would they? How do you exlplain Hilters association with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the numerous Muslim Panzer divisions?

What Muslim Panzer divisions?

Islam is a Semitic religion. Hitler made allies of convenience, but he didn't like Islam or Muslims.