[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

I strongly disagree. Shrug.

Why? Regardless of your personal opinions of either, from a logistic perspective it makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

As a collective, there's no doubt that Nazi Germany, as a whole, was evil, as was Adolf Hitler. However, do I think that every German soldier was evil? No, honestly, I don't.

Neither do I. Do you think that made it OK for intelligent, aware people to wave flags and yell about "supporting OUR troops" while they went around the world committing atrocities?

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

People do evil things under the orders of those in power, and for many people, power is intoxicating. Ever hear of the Stanford prison experiment?

I don't think that's analogous to a superior-subordinate paradigm. Ever heard of the Nuremberg defense?

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Hitler was evil. Bush is evil. Cheney is evil. Their foot soldiers who carry out orders out of fear, loyalty, or need are not evil - misguided, ignorant, indifferent, brainwashed, yes. But not evil.

You don't think any of them are evil?

What exactly do you define as "evil?"

See above, re: Nuremberg defense. At what point do supposedly intelligent adults cease to be responsible for their own actions?

[Wolfn]

Originally Posted by shadha

Wolfn: Like raping a 14 year old girl in front of her family and then killing her family in front of her, before finally killing her.

Oh yes, because there aren't ANY videos existing of groups of Muslims doing the same thing against young girls.

Wolfn: Yes, these are Shadha's heros, and she critisizes me and says I'm an idiot for saying that what the American Military does is wrong.

You are an idiot. Posting pictures lambasting a million plus people based on what a handful of that million plus have heinously done. Yeah, you're just overflowing with intelligence. The same **** can be done and said against Muslims, and every other structured group or nation of people. I don't see your punk ass criticizing the military when they put their life on the line to save others, either within this country or abroad. Oh wait, they have no feelings of their own, they are robotic and just doing as they are told. My bad.

Newaflash, everything you have accused the American military of doing, Muslims have already done it. So what now, are Muslims evil and Nazis as well?


shadha-

I'm sorry, but my loyalty lies with Islam and Muslims, not with the American military that is killing and torturing Muslims.

[shadha]

Hanbali: Your loyalties are not with us. Rather, you are a traitor.
I am still waiting for you to tell me WHOSE life the American military men are saving?

Oh so you deleted the post and change the word around to loyalties?

I hope you are held accountable on the DOJ for every damning comment you have ever made against fellow Muslims. You are not entitled to declare who are and who are not Muslims.


shadha-

[shadha]

Wolfn: I'm sorry, but my loyalty lies with Islam and Muslims, not with the American military that is killing and torturing Muslims.

The same Muslims that are killing and torturing fellow Muslims? You deserve a cookie for that logical explanation. Kudos.


shadha-

[Wolfn]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Takbeer!

Allahu Akbar!

His skin is white as white; he is descended from them, and yet his loyalty is with the Muslims! Meanwhile, Shadha is black, and her people were brought here in chains!

How it is that a white convert excels over a black born Muslim!

Half white/half American Indian, but thanks.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

I am still waiting for you to tell me WHOSE life the American military men are saving?

The American military isn't saving anyone's life. People who believe that paid too much attention to grade school brainwashing.

If anything, probably 90% of the American military establishment's policies & engagements from 1900-present have made life considerably more dangerous for Americans.

The exception may have been WW2, though that became necessary as a result of our needless interference in WWI (go, Woodrow Wilson). Of course, the end result of WW2 made the world more dangerous for Americans (and the planet in general, for that matter) anyway.

Notice how all these other first-world nations such as Canada don't have "OUR BRAYVE BWAHS PERTEKTIN OUR LAAHVS!" ... and yet, they're perfectly safe.

Not to be a Jinnzaman, but war for America is nothing more than the price of hegemony.

[shadha]

Hanbali: His skin is white as white; he is descended from them, and yet his loyalty is with the Muslims! Meanwhile, Shadha is black, and her people were brought here in chains!

Umm....nevermind. You roll with that.

Hanbali: However, I realized that it could be understood in that way, and I did not mean it in that way.

Oh stop the lies. That's exactly how you meant it. For earlier on you said, "You are hated by us Muslims,".

'Us' as in I'm not included in that group.

Again, may you be held accountable for all your damning accusations.


shadha-

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Takbeer!

Allahu Akbar!

His skin is white as white; he is descended from them, and yet his loyalty is with the Muslims! Meanwhile, Shadha is black, and her people were brought here in chains!

How it is that a white convert excels over a black born Muslim!

I don't think skin color has anything to do with anything. I know what you're saying, just want to emphasize that.. Islam is color blind.

But yeah, alhamdulillah, our loyalties are stronger than skin color or national identity. We are loyal to Islam and the Ummah and what pleases Allah SWT. Not to a flag or an ethnicity.

[Variable]

Isn't there mandatory military service in Islam? Jizyah is imposed on non-muslims because it's not compulsory to take part in that right?


Anyway, I like your idea Shadha, but with the suggestion that Bruin gave attached - that any type of public service should be necessary. I think something like the peace corps would be perfect.

[ShotgunMessiah]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Takbeer!

Allahu Akbar!

His skin is white as white; he is descended from them, and yet his loyalty is with the Muslims! Meanwhile, Shadha is black, and her people were brought here in chains!

How it is that a white convert excels over a black born Muslim!

Bwahahahahaha



Anyways, I'm with shadha on this one, not because I want every American killing people but the fact is, there are some things that would be valuable to learn for everyone that can't be taught in a classroom, not the least of which would be eliminating "sloth" from our population.

I'm pretty sure shadha is not suggesting to have everyone go and kill everyone and you guys that think all the Army does is kill people, I'm afraid you're the ones who are misinformed. You let hate for America blind you, that is exactly what you become, blind.

[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

Why? Regardless of your personal opinions of either, from a logistic perspective it makes perfect sense.

Not really. But then logical arguments don't always have just one possible outcome.

Neither do I. Do you think that made it OK for intelligent, aware people to wave flags and yell about "supporting OUR troops" while they went around the world committing atrocities?

Are we talking about soldiers or jingoists here? I'm sorry, I thought it was the former.

I don't think that's analogous to a superior-subordinate paradigm. Ever heard of the Nuremberg defense?

Fair enough. How about the Milgram experiments? Normal, everyday people were willing to do something that one could reasonably believe was killing someone - a person that they had already met and gotten to know a little, not an anonymous "face in the crowd". But, since they were being assured, and bullied in some cases, by an authority figure, most continued. And this was not in a setting where they perceived some threat from their "opponent". They were hurting someone (or believed they were) simply because an authority figure told them to.

You don't think any of them are evil?

What exactly do you define as "evil?"

See above, re: Nuremberg defense. At what point do supposedly intelligent adults cease to be responsible for their own actions?

OK, so some of them may be evil. Just as some Muslims may be evil. However, the vast majority aren't. Just like the vast majority of Muslims aren't. Saying that every US soldier is evil is just as retarded as Ann Coulter saying "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

Well, to me, evil is masterminding destruction or suffering for one's own gain or pleasure. Malicious leaders are evil. Their foot soldiers aren't necessarily evil - though there may be evil psychopaths amongst them who are capable of inciting evil acts on the ground (cf. Casualties of War, 1989). I'm not justifying immoral behavior. I'm just saying that it's entirely possible for normal people to commit horrific acts without being inherently evil.

[ShotgunMessiah]

Originally Posted by Hanbali

Do you deny that the American military is full of idiots? People who barely graduated high school? People who failed to get into any semi-decent university? And they just get dumber in the military...the military is full of meat-heads. Obviously sending your kids to the US military does not make them intelligent...rather, sending them to college would.

Not only do I deny that, I flat out reject the very notion. In fact, many highly intelligent individuals join the Army with the intent to learn what they can in the serivce, take their classes (paid for by the Army) and maybe even get into better shape while they serve their time out.

Also, after your service is up, people who have served in the Army get better interest rates on their loans (which they have an easier time getting than someone who has not served), better payments, residuals, and if they qualify they can continue having their classes paid for by the Army if they stay in the field they were in. Doesn't sound idiotic to me.

[oFoShOuKnO]

There are differences in the types of war a nation may fight.

World War II was a war, that I consider a just war against fascist oppression. It is when the United States(and the world) genuinely felt that there was a threat to the freedom of humanity.

Wars like the Iraq War, should just be renamed the Halliburton war, because its a war for money using the threat of terrorism as a guise.

Take a look at what Hermann Göring(2nd Highest Nazi, behind Hitler himself) said:


Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Not really. But then logical arguments don't always have just one possible outcome.

I said logistic, not logical

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Are we talking about soldiers or jingoists here? I'm sorry, I thought it was the former.

The discussion's been expanded as a result of the argument taking place.

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Fair enough. How about the Milgram experiments? Normal, everyday people were willing to do something that one could reasonably believe was killing someone - a person that they had already met and gotten to know a little, not an anonymous "face in the crowd". But, since they were being assured, and bullied in some cases, by an authority figure, most continued. And this was not in a setting where they perceived some threat from their "opponent". They were hurting someone (or believed they were) simply because an authority figure told them to.

OK, so some of them may be evil. Just as some Muslims may be evil. However, the vast majority aren't. Just like the vast majority of Muslims aren't.

My point is that it doesn't really matter if they're "evil" by your arbitrary definition below or not. I don't think the people who suffer at their hands really care if they're "evil" or not. It doesn't matter in the least. What matters is not their internal nature but what the effect of th