Mandatory Military Service

[Jamroll]

Also, I think we're ignoring another huge issue - that of setting up home in a new place. Maybe you could ignore all the difficulties poor people have in meeting their monthly minimum, let alone the near impossibility for them to save money up, and say for argument's sake they got the money from somewhere to emigrate somehow. What about when they reach their migration point, their new home that they've made hijra to?

The first Muhajiroon (people who make hijra) were greeted by Ansar, who helped set them up. They gave them food, homes, jobs, spending money, (even offering their wives and daughters for marriage in some cases). How many Muslims today in Muslim countries can we say would welcome with open arms people who've migrated, and help set them up with jobs and homes, and make life easier for them?

[Revert]

Jamroll said

Also, I think we're ignoring another huge issue - that of setting up home in a new place. Maybe you could ignore all the difficulties poor people have in meeting their monthly minimum, let alone the near impossibility for them to save money up, and say for argument's sake they got the money from somewhere to emigrate somehow. What about when they reach their migration point, their new home that they've made hijra to?

The first Muhajiroon (people who make hijra) were greeted by Ansar, who helped set them up. They gave them food, homes, jobs, spending money, (even offering their wives and daughters for marriage in some cases). How many Muslims today in Muslim countries can we say would welcome with open arms people who've migrated, and help set them up with jobs and homes, and make life easier for them?

Preach it brother *claps* Testify! *waves arms in air*

[Hanbali]

PhDGirl said

I don't need to prove anything because you are fully capable of looking it up. Just so you know, each VA is affiliated with a medical school and its academic medical center and just about every medical school is affiliated with a VA.

Please provide proof for this claim.

I tried to google it but could find nothing.

Revert said

No this post betrays YOUR lack of knowledge, you didn't factor in Taxes nor living cost. You have no clue how the world works for a working American. I work for $9.40 and hour in a Bakery, i have $1000 per month in rent, $200 in utilities, and $200 in food. Thats $1400 per month. My mothly wage is around $1504 take into account the fact i have to pay taxes and SS and Union costs i make $1300, i run $100 into the red each month. At this moment in time I am having to take a second job just to amke ends meet.

So your little thoery about making hijrah was cute but doesn';t reflet the true picture of a regular working stiff. Your time in Pakland has whittled away your brain son.

First off, I pray that Allah [swt] makes your life easier. Insha-Allah.

Having said that, I find your argument to be a load of crap. My grandparents--on both sides--migrated out of India completely penniless. They arrived in Pakistan completely penniless. It was for this reason that they were given the title of Muhaajir.

You say that you spend $1000 on rent and $200 on electricity. If you needed to make hijrah, then you can find a cheaper place to live in for a month or two. My black friend--who lived in the ghetto of Oakland--was kicked out of his house when he converted to Islam; he lived on the street for many months (almost a year); he would sleep in the mosque. He could simply have reneged and returned to his home. Yet, he did not. He persevered and joined the ranks of the righteous, and those who have suffered for Islam. And by the way, this was when he was only sixteen years old!

So imagine that this sixteen year old kid can do this, just because he did not want to renounce Islam. So why would you want to go even one step further and commit HIGH TREASON against Islam by joining the kufaar in war against the Muslims?

In any case, you can find a shared place to live in for only $200 per month. I know you can find this, because Pakistanis who go from here to live in America always find such places to live in. You share the room with a million people, but it's only for a few months.

So that is $1000 and $200 taken care of. As for your $200 worth of food, then you can just buy a few boxes of cereal and live off of that for two months. When Bani Israel made hijrah, do you know that they ate the same bland food every single day?

In other words, if you want to make hijrah, you can make sacrifices and do it. Where there is a will, there is a way.

And you didn't respond to the fact that you can simply go AWOL. When the army lands in Iraq, just disappear into Iraq.

Revert said

I guess I can, maybe get a third job and forgo the inconvenience of sleep..

Yes, you could do that. You can work 120+ hours per week and make over $4500 a month, even on minimum wage. A surgical resident churns out that many hours per week, so surely you can do it for a few months in order to make hijrah.

Jamroll said

Also, I think we're ignoring another huge issue - that of setting up home in a new place. Maybe you could ignore all the difficulties poor people have in meeting their monthly minimum, let alone the near impossibility for them to save money up, and say for argument's sake they got the money from somewhere to emigrate somehow. What about when they reach their migration point, their new home that they've made hijra to?

Allah [swt] will provide.

Like I said, if you save up a measly $1000. My monthly rent in Pakistan is only $50. And that is considered on the high end here. I have a great place, Masha-Allah. So you could sustain yourself for over 2 years if you just saved up $1000...that means even if you do not work at all in those 2 years.

But like I said, you can work for a call center, and make 50,000+ rupees per month here. And they will hire you in a second.

As for food here, you can get by in a few dollars a day.

[Revert]

Hanbali said

.



First off, I pray that Allah [swt] makes your life easier. Insha-Allah.

Having said that, I find your argument to be a load of crap. My grandparents--on both sides--migrated out of India completely penniless. They arrived in Pakistan completely penniless. It was for this reason that they were given the title of Muhaajir.

You say that you spend $1000 on rent and $200 on electricity. If you needed to make hijrah, then you can find a cheaper place to live in for a month or two. My black friend--who lived in the ghetto of Oakland--was kicked out of his house when he converted to Islam; he lived on the street for many months (almost a year); he would sleep in the mosque. He could simply have reneged and returned to his home. Yet, he did not. He persevered and joined the ranks of the righteous, and those who have suffered for Islam. And by the way, this was when he was only sixteen years old!

So imagine that this sixteen year old kid can do this, just because he did not want to renounce Islam. So why would you want to go even one step further and commit HIGH TREASON against Islam by joining the kufaar in war against the Muslims?

In any case, you can find a shared place to live in for only $200 per month. I know you can find this, because Pakistanis who go from here to live in America always find such places to live in. You share the room with a million people, but it's only for a few months.

So that is $1000 and $200 taken care of. As for your $200 worth of food, then you can just buy a few boxes of cereal and live off of that for two months. When Bani Israel made hijrah, do you know that they ate the same bland food every single day?

In other words, if you want to make hijrah, you can make sacrifices and do it. Where there is a will, there is a way.

And you didn't respond to the fact that you can simply go AWOL. When the army lands in Iraq, just disappear into Iraq.



Yes, you could do that. You can work 120+ hours per week and make over $4500 a month, even on minimum wage. A surgical resident churns out that many hours per week, so surely you can do it for a few months in order to make hijrah.

Ameen to your dua. Thats good for the brother from Oakland, however he is 16, has no ties apart from his parents sibling etc. I have a wife to support, I would do her a great injustice by asking her to sacrifice all that she is accustommed too so we can move to country far away from her family.

$200 a month on food isn't a lot considering I eat plain pasta almost every single day.

I don't want to make Hijrah as I don't feel its neccessary nor is it mandatory.

Going AWOL is breaking the law, and I wouldn't wish to have criminal charges brought against myself if in the event I was caught.

I've already stated what I will do if called up, I will go to Yugoslavia as I have family there.

[Hanbali]

Revert said

Ameen to your dua. Thats good for the brother from Oakland, however he is 16, has no ties apart from his parents sibling etc.

Actually the brother has an amazing story. He lived on the street for almost a year, due to his mother's hatred for Islam.

During that year, he got his highest grades in high school.

He was given full paid scholarship to Harvard, Berkeley, and a bunch of other major schools.

He went to Berkeley on a full paid scholarship, and he eventually supported the same mother who threw him out of the house.

She hated him for becoming a Muslim, but it was only him becoming Muslim that propelled him to Berkeley and allowed him to make enough money to support her, even though she stopped supporting him for that year when he was on the streets. It was Islam which made him a good student; before that, he had been a thug.

Once he started supporting his mother, she then softened towards Islam, and when I was there, she was on the verge of converting. I don't know if she did or not though. Subhan-Allah!

Look how Allah [swt] works!

I have a wife to support, I would do her a great injustice by asking her to sacrifice all that she is accustommed too so we can move to country far away from her family.

You would be doing her a greater injustice by joining the army and entering the abode of Hellfire.

$200 a month on food isn't a lot considering I eat plain pasta almost every single day.

Dearest brother, I did not mean to diminish your difficult situation.

May Allah [swt] reward you for your perseverance.

I know that you live a tough life, and I don't mean to belittle that. ALL I am saying is that if you were called to join the army of the tawageet, you would have options other than joining and becoming an apostate.

I don't want to make Hijrah as I don't feel its neccessary nor is it mandatory.

Brother, I don't believe that hijrah is mandatory on all of us. I said that it would be necessary if you were being forced to join the army. I am talking about that specific situation, in which case I would say that if your appeals of conscientious objection did not work, then hijrah would be your option.

Going AWOL is breaking the law, and I wouldn't wish to have criminal charges brought against myself if in the event I was caught.

So you would rather honor the court of law of the tawageet, but you would feel no qualms of being held accountable in the Court of your Lord Most High?

Yes, we must obey the law of the country we live in, but this law is unjust, and this is civil disobedience, of which is in our American tradition. It is unjust to force people to join their crusader wars. This is civil disobedience to resist this.

I've already stated what I will do if called up, I will go to Yugoslavia as I have family there.

And that would be hijrah in that situation. Remember: the first hijrah was to a land of kufr, i.e. Abyssinia.

[PhDGirl]

Hanbali, just look on pubmed. You're a medical student - you should know how to do basic searches. You can also look at the proposed rotations for the programs you're considering.

Here's a list of VA-affiliated medical schools (so residency programs affiliated with those schools also will have VA time):
Affiliations List - Office of Academic Affiliations - U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs

You didn't answer my question - are you going to seek out non VA-affiliated programs or not do medicine if you don't get into one of those (very few) programs due to your beliefs about the armed forces?

[ChotooMotoo]

Lets all be honest with ourselves, and with eachother, I don't know anything about what it's like to be a medical student, and Jaysh doesn't have a clue what it's like to be poor. I'm talking about being poor, and working in a foreign country based on my personal experience of being poor and my sisters experience both of being poor, and trying to teach english in a foreign country. I assure you, I'm not talking out my rear end, as some have automatically assumed.

I know how much a ticket to Pakistan costs, I was just there in December. Unless you live in NY, the cost is closer to $2000 for the ticket, becuase you first have to take a flight to Chicago, New York or some other point of international departure. I ticket from Seattle cost $1500 in 2004, and the prices have gone up since then. You also have to factor in the cost of getting a Visa (about $100 for 5 year multiple entry) your traveling expenses themselves (give yourself another $50) and the cost of a passport (~$100) and you're looking at a lot of expenses. Also note that your visa does not allow you to work in a foreign country. You have to apply for a seperate work visa for that, and most countries will not grant it unless you already have a job. The way drafts work, you don't always have time to save $2000, get all your papers together AND find an employer to sponsor your work visa. Sure, you could try and find a job and work illegally, but as my sister would be happy to tell you, having worked in a foreign country teaching English, that doesn't work very well in a lot of cases. Sure, authorities are willing to look the other way when it comes to very low labor type jobs, but they are a little more strict when it comes to high paid high demand jobs that could be filled by educated locals.

Jaysh, even if you believe that a person who joins the armed forces, even in extreme duress, is doomed to hell for all eternity and their Islam is as null and void as if they had left it and become Christians, that is your oppinion. You came to that oppinion based on reading the oppinions of others (which were formed by reading interpretations of the Quran and Hadeeth and such). The final word is up to Allah (swt). Follow your oppinion, but be a little easy with your brothers and sisters in such matters. That's the only thing I was trying to make you understand. Clearly, I failed.

Thanks for trying.

[Revert]

Hanbali said

Actually the brother has an amazing story. He lived on the street for almost a year, due to his mother's hatred for Islam.

During that year, he got his highest grades in high school.

He was given full paid scholarship to Harvard, Berkeley, and a bunch of other major schools.

He went to Berkeley on a full paid scholarship, and he eventually supported the same mother who threw him out of the house.

She hated him for becoming a Muslim, but it was only him becoming Muslim that propelled him to Berkeley and allowed him to make enough money to support her, even though she stopped supporting him for that year when he was on the streets. It was Islam which made him a good student; before that, he had been a thug.

Once he started supporting his mother, she then softened towards Islam, and when I was there, she was on the verge of converting. I don't know if she did or not though. Subhan-Allah!

Look how Allah [swt] works!
.

That is an amazing story.

ameen to your duas. Let me make my position clear, if I were drafted, it would be in extreme circumstances and then I would delay the process by appealing as a concientious objector. As a Permanent Resident I don't think i'd be asked to fight for this country.

I would either work as a non combatant or be sent to jail or deported.

[AmroodWaala]

Jamroll said

Also, I think we're ignoring another huge issue - that of setting up home in a new place. Maybe you could ignore all the difficulties poor people have in meeting their monthly minimum, let alone the near impossibility for them to save money up, and say for argument's sake they got the money from somewhere to emigrate somehow. What about when they reach their migration point, their new home that they've made hijra to?

The first Muhajiroon (people who make hijra) were greeted by Ansar, who helped set them up. They gave them food, homes, jobs, spending money, (even offering their wives and daughters for marriage in some cases). How many Muslims today in Muslim countries can we say would welcome with open arms people who've migrated, and help set them up with jobs and homes, and make life easier for them?

i second that

[Bruinrab]

Hanbali said

Please provide proof for this claim.

I tried to google it but could find nothing.

I did a very quick search on Freida. I looked up IM programs in California and checked for their affiliated institutions. The UC's, Stanford, and Loma Linda all had VA medical centers listed as teaching sites.

From my own experience, at least in California, all of the university-based surgical residencies had extensive rotations at VA hospitals. They're quite proud of it too, because the residents have a lot more independence at the VAs.

[Hanbali]

Sister Chotoo Motoo, do you deny that I routinely travel back and forth between Pakistan and California? Sheesh, I am telling you that my ticket ROUND TRIP costs 70,000 rupees. That is about $1,000. My friends just bought tickets round-trip and it cost them 90,000 rupees ON EMIRATES ($1,300), which is more expensive than other airlines.

Just because you were stupid and bought expensive tickets doesn't mean crap. It's not a proof of anything other than the fact that you don't know how to shop.

Anyways, I already told you that the kid can go AWOL.

[Hanbali]

PhDGirl said

Jaysh, even if you believe that a person who joins the armed forces, even in extreme duress, is doomed to hell for all eternity

Define "extreme duress". I define it as someone putting a gun to your head and threatening to blow your brains out.

[Hanbali]

Sister Chotooo Motoo, I apologize if I came across as harsh. Forgive me.

I also did not mean to diminish being poor. May Allah [swt] bless those who persevere in times of poorness.

My only contention, dear sister, is that there is no justification for lifting a gun, pointing it at a fellow Muslim, and firing it at the behest of the army of tawagheet.

There are many ways out of this, and one merely needs to be creative.

And by the way, I don't find this "un-american". Civil disobedience is part of the American tradition.

May Allah [swt] unite our hearts on the Siratul Mustaqeem.

Sister PhDGirl, I am an IMG so I don't know much about how things work in America. I will have to do some investigation before I can come to a conclusion as to what the proper course of action would be. Having said that, what does this have to do with me anyways? Islamic rulings do not change simply because of me. Anyways, I will get back to you on this issue when I investigate it further, insha-Allah. May Allah [swt] reward you.

[Hanbali]

Jamroll said

The first Muhajiroon (people who make hijra) were greeted by Ansar

Dear brother, the first hijrah was to a land of disbelief, i.e. Abyssinia.

It was only the second hijrah which was to Madeenah and the Ansar.

[PhDGirl]

Hanbali said

Define "extreme duress". I define it as someone putting a gun to your head and threatening to blow your brains out.

Sister PhDGirl, I am an IMG so I don't know much about how things work in America. I will have to do some investigation before I can come to a conclusion as to what the proper course of action would be. Having said that, what does this have to do with me anyways? Islamic rulings do not change simply because of me. Anyways, I will get back to you on this issue when I investigate it further, insha-Allah. May Allah [swt] reward you.

I didn't say what you quoted me as saying so I don't have a comment on the "extreme duress". CM said it.

The reason I'm asking about the residency programs is that you are being very harsh with others who join or support the military, yet you are seeking out a career which will involve you doing the very same thing. Is it okay for you to do but not others? You might be an IMG, but you were raised in the US and are seeking to do residency and practice here, so you really should know how things work.