[Warmheart4u2007]

I am an honest man. So when when it is right I would say right and if it is left , you should not expect me to call it left. The criminals from the lal masjid acted as what khawarij in the early days of Islam. The disgraced Islam the world over and represented a bad picture of muslim umma. This thread represent my hat towards them. Let us see some interesting pictures and some interesting comments.

I following post to other threads but no reply or refutation. Is there any logical grounds for supporting them. If not then why some people are supporting them. I challange all the people who support them to defend them are make any justifications for them. There is no way. We should accept that these people donot deserve any sympathy at all.


Those people were criminals and they broke the country laws many time including

1. kidnapping innocent women and keeping them in their custody (Is this Islam)
Aunty Shamim who was kidnapped later on said in her interview "If this Islam then I want to leave Islam".

2. They captured by force a children library ( A Government one!) (Is this Islam)

3. They raided a massage center and kidnapped chinese persons.. (Is this Islam)
kidnapping foreigners! Can anyone who is sane, defend these criminals. Now there is something fishy all about this. Why only chinese citizens are targeted.
Is this a conspiracy to disturb our relations with China supposidly the cosest Pakistan friend today.

4. They arrested Government Personnels . Can you believe that.

5. When the securities agencies warned them to handover themselves to law, they begane a war with the government ,used weapons and killed many persons.

5. Kharijia Abdulaziz and Khariji Abdur Rashid many times openly threatened to carryout suicide attacks (that prove their connections with the suicide bombers)

I am just worried that Government had arrested around 1600 peoples from there and almost all of them have been released. I praise the Pakistani Government for such act of releasing all the criminals , some more such acts of kindness and we would surely have a Taliban Regime in Pakistan in the near future.I once again reproduce my post levelling charges against the criminals of lal masjid and jamia hifsa. So far I have not got a single sane reply or refutation. Is there no educated person who supports the criminals of lal masjid in a sane and logical way. The broke many laws. You would have provide strong justifications for them in order to prove them innocent angels.

For me the biggest shock of my life was the shameless activites of burka babes from jamia hifsa. They made a real show before all the world. It would be interesting how anyone would defend their activities. Can anyone defend their activities in a sane and just manner. I am just tired of the posts of illeterate and naive persons.

[Warmheart4u2007]

pictures are the facts recorded by cameras.

[iliketofish]

What do you do when corruption pervades every aspect of the government, from the heads of state down to the local police? Who could they turn to shut down the brothels and prostitution when big named officials were involved?

[bluey]

Calling them ''Burka Babes'' is very disrespectful. Have some respect. They're your Sisters in Islam.

I think the one reason why a lot of people stopped replying to your posts was because you didn't comprehend what was being said and the thread kept on running in the same circles. [That's one reason why i stopped posting there - I realised it wouldn't go anywhere] You say you didn't see any single sane reply or refutation, I saw plenty. The situation that happened is not a black and white one. You can't call them Khawarij or condemn them to be absolutely guilty but on the other hand yes, some of their actions might be questionable, but calling them names or cursing them is not going to get anyone anywhere. Not all of what they did was bad. [Especially the shutting down of the brothel - I fully supported that and still do].

[Shahnawaz]

Your mums a khariji!

[A_Muminah]

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaah,

SubHana-Allaah, bro Warmheart4u2007...you have received your answers and the opinion of many posters in countless threads. Why was there the need to create a new one? Do you want to cause more tensions and anger a couple more people? This had been debated over and over again but if you want to do it again...go to the already existing threads.

It is truly sad when you see people of your own Ummah creating a rift. Why is it so hard to see between the black and white? If you are sincere in your questions regarding the situation at the Lal Masjid, ask away but refrain from bashing certains persons and/or cursing at others. I found this thread to be very disrespectful and degrading. It is surely better for you to keep quiet.

My two cents.
Baraka-Allaahu Feek.

Was-Salaamu 'AlaykumW a Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakaatuh.

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by Warmheart4u2007

pictures are the facts recorded by cameras.

Thanks for the pictures Warmheart. What were they planning on doing with those sticks?
Shows how peaceful these "sisters in islam" were. Nice thread title too.

Originally Posted by bluey

[Especially the shutting down of the brothel - I fully supported that and still do].

If my friends and I armed ourselves and forcibly closed down extremist madrassas would you support that too?

Originally Posted by iliketofish

What do you do when corruption pervades every aspect of the government, from the heads of state down to the local police? Who could they turn to shut down the brothels and prostitution when big named officials were involved?

Corruption is bad in Pakistan, but that is not why brothels exist. The reason these brothels stay open is because they are not causing any harm. It's the same in the UK and US and other places where prostitution in principle is illegal yet tolerated to some degree.

I support vigilante action against buildings used for harmful purposes. Which is why I hoped a mob would come along and close down that mosque.

[iliketofish]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Thanks for the pictures Warmheart. What were they planning on doing with those sticks?
Shows how peaceful these "sisters in islam" were. Nice thread title too.

And if I were to post pictures of the military with guns your response would be...?

Corruption is bad in Pakistan, but that is not why brothels exist. The reason these brothels stay open is because they are not causing any harm. It's the same in the UK and US and other places where prostitution in principle is illegal yet tolerated to some degree.

... brothels aren't harmful and should be allowed to stay open in Muslim countries?

[ChotooMotoo]

How come these women from the conservative NWFP were allowed to go to a Madrassah in Islamabad? WOuldn't their families want to keep them home? Wouldn't it be better, if the really were so conservative, to keep them close to home and be sure they are not exposed to such vices as prostitution etc? Why are these families entrusting their daughters to these mullahs? Are there not lady Madrassas closer to home that would be better? It's not like they are learning critical life skills at these schools. Also, some of these girls were quite old, why are they even in school at that age? School will not help them get a job, it will not help them get a husband, or help them with their housework. These girls would have been better to stay home. There is something else going on here, becuase these girls were certainly not as conservative as they make themselves out to be.

[A_Muminah]

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaah,

I just wrote the whole post but it got lost while Islamica was trying to post it. I guess this is the clean-cut-to-the-point-version.

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

How come these women from the conservative NWFP were allowed to go to a Madrassah in Islamabad?

Why wouldnt they be allowed be? What is so wrong in going to a Madrassah in a different city?

WOuldn't their families want to keep them home?

If a parent knows that his child is learning the Deen, why would he prevent her from benefitting?

Wouldn't it be better, if the really were so conservative, to keep them close to home and be sure they are not exposed to such vices as prostitution etc?

Why should one be prevented from learning the Haqq? Many of us reside in the West and we see a lot worse than that but being here, we have to some degree 'respect' the laws of the society and cannot do anything about it. But the Muslims that live in lands that are referred to as or are named 'Islamic Republics' have the right to change any such thing that is against the Shari'ah. There is a hadith that states that if a Muslim sees that haraam is being done, he would change it with his hands. If he cannot, he should change it with his mouth (ya3ni, preach against it) and if he still cannot than he should at least know in his mind that it is wrong. That is what they are carrying out. Changing the haraam with their hands.

Why are these families entrusting their daughters to these mullahs?

Why would they not? It isnt a brothrel but a place of learning and the teachers being, the students of 'ilm. The people that seek to please Allaah and not His creation are always trusted.

Are there not lady Madrassas closer to home that would be better?

You can do some research and give them a call.

It's not like they are learning critical life skills at these schools.

SubHana-Allaah, I dont know what you mean by 'critical life skills' but they were not just learning anything. They were learning and gaining knowledge about ISLAM. Islam is not just a religion of saying 'ohhh, I believe in ONE Lord and Prophet Mohammad (saw) as His servent and Messenger'. Its a way of life and the outline of how every person should live their life. If there anything more benefitting than that in 'learning critical life skills', do tell me.

Islam, the religion that teaches everything critical in life. A religion that gives you the rights and wrongs of dunyah. If they had decided to study, 'computer science' or 'business management', what critical life skills would they benefit? They gain so much more in this field of study.

Also, some of these girls were quite old, why are they even in school at that age?

Since when does education have a limit? I see that you're 26, so by now you should have graduated and theres no need for you to go to school.

School will not help them get a job, it will not help them get a husband, or help them with their housework.

See above.
These girls are not looking to get a job or to try to get an education to try to find a richer or a better looking husband. Rather, they are seeking their Creator's pleasure. They want to look forward to the aakhirah not what you have in mind.

These girls would have been better to stay home. There is something else going on here, becuase these girls were certainly not as conservative as they make themselves out to be.

Subhana-Allaah. It is amazing how it is people like yourself who complain about women not being educated in places like NWFP and to rid of ignorance in the areas. Now, when it comes to education and them standing up for their Deen, they will ask for them to stay at home so that they stay in that ignorance. Also, you have no right to say who 'conservative' or not.

I see that you are just rolling off sarcasm ....it isnt good.
We should make 70 excuses for our brothers and sisters in Islaam instead of bashing and blaming them for something we do not even know the full story of.

Ouii...lunch time now. (I didnt re-read my post, so excuse any mistakes)

Was-Salaamu 'AlaykumW a Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakaatuh

[TrentReznor858]

Originally Posted by A_Muminah

SubHana-Allaah, I dont know what you mean by 'critical life skills' but they were just learning just anything. They were learning and gaining knowledge about ISLAM. Islam is not just a religion or saying 'ohhh, I believe in ONE Lord and Prophet Mohammad (saw) as His servent and Messenger'. Its a way of life and the outline of how every person should live their life. If there anything more benefitting than that in 'learning critical life skills', do tell me.

That response right there negates everything you just wrote.

[Warmheart4u2007]

Originally Posted by iliketofish

What do you do when corruption pervades every aspect of the government, from the heads of state down to the local police? Who could they turn to shut down the brothels and prostitution when big named officials were involved?

There are many ways. For example educate people, create mass awareness, report to police of anything criminal happening, write to newspapers, compel your political party to take action etc. All the people are not bad. About brothels and prostitution I can say that no woman like to be a prostitute. Prostitutation is a crime which is actually directed against the same woman who indulges in it. It is a kind of slavery- a woman selling her body for mony effectively turning herself in a commodity which can be purchased and sold. These and other problems can not be solved over night. One has to trace out the roots and then from there one can hope to eliminate these evils. Many women are kidnapped and then sold to brothels, many due to powerty indulge in it and many are forced into it due to different reasons.We as a society has to reach out to provide for the real solution. Breaking laws, burning, looting , killing and forcing others in the name of religion is not the way and that is what the criminals of lal masjid did.In Pakistan there is a law and a system . And there are ways you can peacefully struggle against all kinds of evil. You forcefully shut a brothal so what would happen. The women working there would go to some other brothal etc. You need to do this with a complete programme including providing shelter and respectable lives for them.

Originally Posted by bluey

Calling them ''Burka Babes'' is very disrespectful. Have some respect. They're your Sisters in Islam.

I think the one reason why a lot of people stopped replying to your posts was because you didn't comprehend what was being said and the thread kept on running in the same circles. [That's one reason why i stopped posting there - I realised it wouldn't go anywhere] You say you didn't see any single sane reply or refutation, I saw plenty. The situation that happened is not a black and white one. You can't call them Khawarij or condemn them to be absolutely guilty but on the other hand yes, some of their actions might be questionable, but calling them names or cursing them is not going to get anyone anywhere. Not all of what they did was bad. [Especially the shutting down of the brothel - I fully supported that and still do].

Yes it is disrepectful. That is what I felt when I saw on the television armed with stickes these so called female students running in the streets, shouting slogans and capturing government library. I don't want such sisters. I know they were brain washed and wrongly educated but still their actions have left a stigma.

Why I can't call them khawarij. They acted like the same . Have you studied some history. Actually the people get confused when they combine muslim and criminal just saying "a muslim criminal". A criminal is a criminal neither a muslim nor a nonmuslim.

The shutting down of the brothel was a plot. That has been called a massage centre by the media and the government. And I can not agree with the idea of calling it a brothel because Khariji Abdur Rashid say so. There were chinese persons in it and the matter was not taken lightly by chinese government. For the last few years chinese are been targetted in pakistan by Talibans etc. Abdullah Mehsood a Taliban leader was involved in killing of several chinese engineers similarly in peshawar several chinese citizens were killed and their killing was videoed and distributed in China. The same strategy to disturb the Pak China relations.

Now if I ask what is the proof that the massage centre was a brothel? I know your answer because Khariji Abdur Rashid and his student thought so. Is this correct Islamically, where is the condition of four witnesses. You should consult a good scholar to know about the conditions for declaring someone fornicater etc.

Originally Posted by Shahnawaz

Your mums a khariji!

I only know she was a Hafiza Quran (one who memorise the whole Quran). I think we should left it to the Akhira and I would really want to know then how you call her a Khariji.

Originally Posted by A_Muminah

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaah,

SubHana-Allaah, bro Warmheart4u2007...you have received your answers and the opinion of many posters in countless threads. Why was there the need to create a new one? Do you want to cause more tensions and anger a couple more people? This had been debated over and over again but if you want to do it again...go to the already existing threads.

It is truly sad when you see people of your own Ummah creating a rift. Why is it so hard to see between the black and white? If you are sincere in your questions regarding the situation at the Lal Masjid, ask away but refrain from bashing certains persons and/or cursing at others. I found this thread to be very disrespectful and degrading. It is surely better for you to keep quiet.

My two cents.
Baraka-Allaahu Feek.

Was-Salaamu 'AlaykumW a Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakaatuh.

The rift is created when people support criminals. We just can't let crazy madrassa students rampant on the road and streets burning, killing , looting etc.

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Thanks for the pictures Warmheart. What were they planning on doing with those sticks?
Shows how peaceful these "sisters in islam" were. Nice thread title too.
If my friends and I armed ourselves and forcibly closed down extremist madrassas would you support that too?
Corruption is bad in Pakistan, but that is not why brothels exist. The reason these brothels stay open is because they are not causing any harm. It's the same in the UK and US and other places where prostitution in principle is illegal yet tolerated to some degree.
I support vigilante action against buildings used for harmful purposes. Which is why I hoped a mob would come along and close down that mosque.

I think you should also read my comments about brothels. but thanks for support.

Originally Posted by iliketofish

And if I were to post pictures of the military with guns your response would be...?



... brothels aren't harmful and should be allowed to stay open in Muslim countries?

You can post pictures of military with guns , as that is a prart of their duty to keep guns.I just don't get you. Because military have guns so should every madrassa student in pakistan also have a gun, amazing thoughts.

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

How come these women from the conservative NWFP were allowed to go to a Madrassah in Islamabad? WOuldn't their families want to keep them home? Wouldn't it be better, if the really were so conservative, to keep them close to home and be sure they are not exposed to such vices as prostitution etc? Why are these families entrusting their daughters to these mullahs? Are there not lady Madrassas closer to home that would be better? It's not like they are learning critical life skills at these schools. Also, some of these girls were quite old, why are they even in school at that age? School will not help them get a job, it will not help them get a husband, or help them with their housework. These girls would have been better to stay home. There is something else going on here, becuase these girls were certainly not as conservative as they make themselves out to be.

Actually there is powerty. People due to powert send their children to madrassas where they are provided food and clothing etc free. Now a question arise from where these so called madrassas get the money . And you Jamia Hafsa was just like an empire. It was a huge huge building.Many many girls of Jamia Hafsa were without any relatives with no one to care about them so they were permanenty living there. So there was at least some good but those good things were used as proxy as they were actually involved in terrorism.