[rxrlm]

Its funny how quickly Obama changes his positions cuz Hillary called him "naive" when it comes to foreign policy. Unfortunately, showing that your tough on the war on terror is the surest way to win the hearts of many Americans. And it seems like if you remotely fall under any islamist group, you are alkaida. No questions asked.

God help us.

Originally Posted by iliketofish

Not one candidate (who stands a chance of actually winning) looks promising. This clown is just as belligerent as Bush and his crew and is clearly willing to do anything to get votes. He's also been sucking up hard to Israel and AIPAC in the past few weeks.

And on top of that he claims he doesn't suck up to special interest groups. All politicians dance to the tune of money and power and its obvious where his interests are.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

i did pick up on the sarcasm, but i thought it was worthwhile to make the comments that i made anyway

in any case, you are right that sometimes wars are necessary, but in general people use this argument to justify their own countries attacking others, not having their country destroyed in a war. Its not a good thing to go through, alot of people are killed and hurt, and often societies never fully recover. There are parts of the world that still havent recovered from wars fought many centuries ago. That isnt a process i would ever wish on my country or anyone else's, but to each their own

ws

We have a different perspective on things. Like one brother had reminded me recently, al-dunya sijn al-mu'min. Of course I don't deliberately wish for hardships to come my way or to befall my country, but if it's going to reverse the current situation and bring an everlasting peace, then it's a small price to pay.

The princes of Europe fought bloody wars for decades, which ended with the Peace of Westphalia. The peace treaty did not come about until a comprehensive war was fought, and until all parties were done with killing each other. As long as we're at the receiving end, the bloodthirsty Bush administration will not stop it's butchering of Muslims. Even power can stop them, not a humiliated and defeated rival who silently takes the blows.

We can all be pragmatic and forward thinking when it comes to our countries, but we also need to be equally spiritual and have faith in Allah's word. I don't think Allah (swt) had said, just play along and don't resist - your wealth and personal security is all that matters. If you're one to think like that, you're totally free. I, on the other hand, would like to think in the context of an Ummah that was described by the Prophet as one body.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

We have a different perspective on things. Like one brother had reminded me recently, al-dunya sijn al-mu'min. Of course I don't deliberately wish for hardships to come my way or to befall my country, but if it's going to reverse the current situation and bring an everlasting peace, then it's a small price to pay.

The princes of Europe fought bloody wars for decades, which ended with the Peace of Westphalia. The peace treaty did not come about until a comprehensive war was fought, and until all parties were done with killing each other. As long as we're at the receiving end, the bloodthirsty Bush administration will not stop it's butchering of Muslims. Even power can stop them, not a humiliated and defeated rival who silently takes the blows.

We can all be pragmatic and forward thinking when it comes to our countries, but we also need to be equally spiritual and have faith in Allah's word. I don't think Allah (swt) had said, just play along and don't resist - your wealth and personal security is all that matters. If you're one to think like that, you're totally free. I, on the other hand, would like to think in the context of an Ummah that was described by the Prophet as one body.

Salam

good comments as usual, but you need to remember that in the last 'comprehensive' war that was fought, which established the current world order, over 60 million people lost their lives.

Since faith is part of this argument, we should remember that Allah governs everything. if he wants another war to happen which kills 60 million or 100 million or everybody on earth, he can cause that to happen. likewise if he wants some just and peaceful order to come about for everyone on earth (and we may or may not disagree on the form of that order), then he can cause that order to be established without the loss of a single innocent life. We should want the latter to happen rather than the former. Thats all i'm saying. No reason to wish war or death on any innocent people, let alone our own countrymen

ws

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Salam

good comments as usual, but you need to remember that in the last 'comprehensive' war that was fought, which established the current world order, over 60 million people lost their lives.

Since faith is part of this argument, we should remember that Allah governs everything. if he wants another war to happen which kills 60 million or 100 million or everybody on earth, he can cause that to happen. likewise if he wants some just and peaceful order to come about for everyone on earth (and we may or may not disagree on the form of that order), then he can cause that order to be established without the loss of a single innocent life. We should want the latter to happen rather than the former. Thats all i'm saying. No reason to wish war or death on any innocent people, let alone our own countrymen

ws

I totally agree with you. Like I said, I do not wish for hardships, but then again, I do not believe in being passive. Allah (swt) had said, "Allah does not change a people's lot unless they change what is in their hearts." [13:11] And Allah had also said, "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." [2:216]

If Allah (swt) wants for a war to happen, then it is surely for the best. And if the mad people in the US want to attack us, then I don't think playing the innocent sheep is honourable. It is best to have faith in Allah and trust His wisdom. If the stupid Americans are going berserk, then we'd better be prepared, not wage a "peaceful, McDonald's loving Arab" campaign.

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

We have a different perspective on things. Like one brother had reminded me recently, al-dunya sijn al-mu'min. Of course I don't deliberately wish for hardships to come my way or to befall my country, but if it's going to reverse the current situation and bring an everlasting peace, then it's a small price to pay.

The princes of Europe fought bloody wars for decades, which ended with the Peace of Westphalia. The peace treaty did not come about until a comprehensive war was fought, and until all parties were done with killing each other. As long as we're at the receiving end, the bloodthirsty Bush administration will not stop it's butchering of Muslims. Even power can stop them, not a humiliated and defeated rival who silently takes the blows.

We can all be pragmatic and forward thinking when it comes to our countries, but we also need to be equally spiritual and have faith in Allah's word. I don't think Allah (swt) had said, just play along and don't resist - your wealth and personal security is all that matters. If you're one to think like that, you're totally free. I, on the other hand, would like to think in the context of an Ummah that was described by the Prophet as one body.

And in this regard please read

http://armyofmahdi.googlepages.com/home

The people of the Khurasan are the raw material from which the army of Imam Mahdi will be forged.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by LEGALEAGLE

And in this regard please read

http://armyofmahdi.googlepages.com/home

The people of the Khurasan are the raw material from which the army of Imam Mahdi will be forged.

Thanks for sharing.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I totally agree with you. Like I said, I do not wish for hardships, but then again, I do not believe in being passive. Allah (swt) had said, "Allah does not change a people's lot unless they change what is in their hearts." [13:11] And Allah had also said, "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." [2:216]

If Allah (swt) wants for a war to happen, then it is surely for the best. And if the mad people in the US want to attack us, then I don't think playing the innocent sheep is honourable. It is best to have faith in Allah and trust His wisdom. If the stupid Americans are going berserk, then we'd better be prepared, not wage a "peaceful, McDonald's loving Arab" campaign.

well yeah, if some other country attacks you then you should fight back, thats a natural right. Peaceful campaigns are powerful too, but not necessarily against aerial bombing and countries that have gone 'berserk' as you put it. There is a difference between fighting against attackers and wishing that somebody would attack so that you could fight them. I dont know why alot of Arabs have militant fantasies about the future, where its all about cataclysmic war to obliterate various enemies. I'm sure the trauma of Israel's creation and the helplessness under various failed regimes in key Arab states (which include Egypt) is part of it. But its also possible to imagine a future that is peaceful and dignified for Arabs, without the necessity of acting out a revenge fantasy where millions of our people die (or where we kill some huge number of other people). I actually think long-term sustained peace across most of the middle east, and gradually all of it, is the future, and not through American intervention or any foreign intervention either. Actually, i think you guys in the gulf will lead the way. But that was a tangent

ws

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

well yeah, if some other country attacks you then you should fight back, thats a natural right. Peaceful campaigns are powerful too, but not necessarily against aerial bombing and countries that have gone 'berserk' as you put it. There is a difference between fighting against attackers and wishing that somebody would attack so that you could fight them. I dont know why alot of Arabs have militant fantasies about the future, where its all about cataclysmic war to obliterate various enemies. I'm sure the trauma of Israel's creation and the helplessness under various failed regimes in key Arab states (which include Egypt) is part of it. But its also possible to imagine a future that is peaceful and dignified for Arabs, without the necessity of acting out a revenge fantasy where millions of our people die. I actually think long-term sustained peace across most of the middle east, and gradually all of it, is the future, and not through American intervention or any foreign intervention either. Actually, i think you guys in the gulf will lead the way. But that was a tangent

ws

Militant fantasies? Thanks for putting it in such a romanticised way.

I don't think we should all be vindictive, and poke the Americans in the eye and whatnot. You're assuming those American-led wars will come to an end soon, which I truly hope they would, but reality shows otherwise. And since it doesn't seem like they're going to be restrained any time soon, I think it is best that we be wisely prepared to defend ourselves and our countries, not to attack theirs. After all, I did not suggest that we cross oceans to confront the Americans. They're the ones planning to land in our backyards.

Wait a minute. They're already there!

I sincerely hope that a durable peace is realised soon, but that's not pragmatic, nor is it realistic. That sounds like naiive idealism. The truth is, as long as there are conflicting interests - and there are, and will always be - peace will not be achieved easily.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

well yeah, if some other country attacks you then you should fight back, thats a natural right. Peaceful campaigns are powerful too, but not necessarily against aerial bombing and countries that have gone 'berserk' as you put it. There is a difference between fighting against attackers and wishing that somebody would attack so that you could fight them. I dont know why alot of Arabs have militant fantasies about the future, where its all about cataclysmic war to obliterate various enemies. I'm sure the trauma of Israel's creation and the helplessness under various failed regimes in key Arab states (which include Egypt) is part of it. But its also possible to imagine a future that is peaceful and dignified for Arabs, without the necessity of acting out a revenge fantasy where millions of our people die (or where we kill some huge number of other people). I actually think long-term sustained peace across most of the middle east, and gradually all of it, is the future, and not through American intervention or any foreign intervention either. Actually, i think you guys in the gulf will lead the way. But that was a tangent

ws

Well it could be that the Arabs like many oppressed populaces recognise that with war comes a dismantling of the existing status quo and power structure. And maybe they want that, even it means people lose their lives along the way. "Oppression is worse than slaughter...".

[LEGALEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Well it could be that the Arabs like many oppressed populaces recognise that with war comes a dismantling of the existing status quo and power structure. And maybe they want that, even it means people lose their lives along the way. "Oppression is worse than slaughter...".

"And if we did not check one nation with another surely there would be tyranny in the world..."

Allah swt is remaking the world in preparation for something. All we know is that it's on an epic scale.

Before the Muslims fought the Romans Allah swt weakened the Roman Empire by changing the climate using volcanic eruptions in Indonesia.

"The Universe is undergoing a complete upheaval...
Its nature is going to change so as to enable its
creation anew." -- Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406)

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Militant fantasies? Thanks for putting it in such a romanticised way.

well, i didnt mean any offense by it, and it wasnt directed at you exactly. The popular imagination over there is pretty fixated on war though.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I don't think we should all be vindictive, and poke the Americans in the eye and whatnot. You're assuming those American-led wars will come to an end soon, which I truly hope they would, but reality shows otherwise. And since it doesn't seem like they're going to be restrained any time soon, I think it is best that we be wisely prepared to defend ourselves and our countries, not to attack theirs. After all, I did not suggest that we cross oceans to confront the Americans. They're the ones planning to land in our backyards.


Wait a minute. They're already there!

Yeah I understand what you're saying. I didnt say you were being aggressive, and I acknowledge you were talking about defense. You were not speculating or imagining a situation where the Emirates invades the USA and blows up the statue of liberty and so on (although others do speculate and imagine such scenarios like their crazy American counterparts who want to drop nukes everywhere and so on). You were talking about citizens of the Emirates defending themselves and drawing America into a quagmire where they slaughter American soldiers in the ruins of their destroyed cities, much like the situation in Iraq (which is what I assume you mean by 'they are here already'). That would be self defense, and I'm not saying it would be wrong. I just dont think that this is a productive place for our collective imagination to be, as Arab youths. Obviously, I'm an Arab-American so our future is very different from yours, and my concerns are about building our community's capacities here in New York City and America as a whole, before concerns about prosperity in Egypt and other regional issues in the middle east. Therefore I am something of an outsider, and I acknowledge that. But, be that as it may, I dont think the dream of our youth should be to destroy our enemies in wars in our home cities and towns. And I'll tell you that this isnt the dream of the youth of highly productive and successful societies (which is not to minimize the considerable success of gulf countries in the last couple of decades). We can blame that on the Americans or the Israelis or on some other outsiders, and I'm sure those arguments would be partially valid, but only partially because part of the blame also belongs on a popular culture and narrative that is so fixated on revenge and war. We're all progeny of tribal and clan cultures where vendetta plays a major role, but vendettas are often examples of hubris in which both parties end up being destroyed

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I sincerely hope that a durable peace is realised soon, but that's not pragmatic, nor is it realistic. That sounds like naiive idealism. The truth is, as long as there are conflicting interests - and there are, and will always be - peace will not be achieved easily.

conflicting interests will always exist everywhere on earth, but that doesnt necessarily translate to neverending warfare in every corner of the earth. The fact is, most Arabs already live in peace. The war in Iraq will have to end in some way, it isnt going to rage non-stop for a million years. Either some faction will come to dominate the others or some arrangement will be reached between them. It might not end with a just peace, but most of us dont want a just peace in Iraq anyway because that would entail giving a majority of power to the majority of Iraqis who happen to be shias. The slaughter of black africans in Darfur looks like it will end soon. I am hopeful that Palestine will be established pretty soon. And more importantly, there are cultural revivals all over the middle east and even movements toward political reform. We're not talking about geologic time, this is stuff that will start to mature within a decade or two. We'll see the fruits within our lifetime inshallah. And i dont think a nuclear exchange between countries or a giant war of suicide hijackings and assassinations, or huge tank columns going through the desert or urban combat in destroyed cities would benefit the region more. Yeah, it may come down to that, but I hope it doesnt and i dont think it will. Just my opinion though!

ws

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Well it could be that the Arabs like many oppressed populaces recognise that with war comes a dismantling of the existing status quo and power structure. And maybe they want that, even it means people lose their lives along the way. "Oppression is worse than slaughter...".

yeah i agree, i think the root is that they want change. A scenario of all-out armageddon against any and all enemies, with a guarantee of victory because of the certainty of direct intervention by God himself on their side, would obviously lead to major changes that many people probably want.

I think you hit the nail on the head, except for the last part because its extremely rare for Arabs to want to be slaughtered, and I can tell you that when people imagine this stuff, they dont think about their children being killed or their siblings or elders, which is what a slaughter entails, they think about themselves being gloriously martyred along with other heroic soldiers as an embodiment of national and religious sacrifice, and being remembered for that sacrifice and its enduring victory. Thats the image that is flouted all over the nationalist government run media as well as the underground propaganda of insurgent groups in Iraq, Palestinian liberation movements, and anti-government factions in other arab countries. Nobody wants their families to be chopped up with machetes like the tutsi in rwanda or incinerated in giant firestorms or nuclear explosions

ws

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

The fact is, most Arabs already live in peace.

I understand and agree with what you say, more or less. But I don't exactly agree with that statement. If you mean peace as in the absence of war, then yes, most Arabs do in fact live in peace. But if you mean a prosperous peace, where there are no other Arabs/Muslims being murdered nextdoor, and where there's value and respect for human life, liberties, booming economies, equal job opportunities ... etc. then most Arabs lack that.

We live in relative peace in the Emirates, and our economy is doing good so far. But it would be wrong to say that the majority of Emiratis think they live in peace. Most of us believe we are occupied, and we're in a state of cold-war with the US. Like I said, think of it in the context of that hadith about the Muslim Ummah being one body, and if one organ falls ill, the whole body responds in fever.

And I'm sure most of us are not short-sighted. Of course, at stake is not only the destruction of infrastructre, but also of life. And that cannot be one's life alone, but certainly involves family and friends. It's just that in times of war, you entrust the lives of your loved ones to Allah. We belong to Him, and it is up to Him whether we live longer or meet with sure death. But the idea of death shouldn't put us off doing what we are obliged to do; i.e. to defend our deen, dawlah and life.