[Variable]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Actually, no. You are offended that in the West, you can't force your beliefs on others.

Many people have no interest in your religious beliefs. Learn to be mature enough to accept that.

I was wondering why you used the word infidel in the other thread. Now I know why, you're the new resident Muslim hater.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Ah. More evidence of your incompetence and lack of comprehension. You're too generous.

Sir, I was born in the West and have lived here my entire life. So don't presume to dictate to me what the West is or isn't about. So, be mature enough to accept that point.

It’s not a matter of maturity as to whether or not you live in the West, as you claim.

Second, Islam already explicitly says that there is no compulsion in religion and that we cannot force religion upon others. And I understand and accept that wholeheartedly. So please be mature enough to accept that as well.

Toodles.

We hear a lot of this flowery language you proffer. However, the reality is far removed from the glossy veneer of no compulsion in religion you claim.

Western values are the same values shared by our free and open societies: equality, individual rights, pluralism, and freedom of conscience. Islam embodies none of these values. Of course, you knows this. To obfuscate this plain reality, though, you conflate a dishonest myth of Islamic tolerance with the Western folly of multiculturalism, and you hope to sell your reason-debilitating admixture to the willing quasi-dhimmis.

Moslem apologists present the sham to Westerners of dhimmis (Christians and Jews living in “muslim lands”) having a good life under the humiliating and often brutal conditions of shari'ah law. This is, of course, absurd. Dhimmitude is simply the assertion of Islam's supremacy through making life for the non-Muslim subject difficult, dehumanizing, and dangerous.

You seem to forget that your either / or (forced conversion or pay the jizya), compulsory proscription of “submit” or suffer the consequences, collapses the flowery image of islam you’re trying to sell us. This intolerance is appalling to us after all we've been through trying to move forward in securing freedom and equality for all members of our societies here in the West. But this is freedom in Islam according to moslems rules. There are no elected leaders. There is the shari'ah law as interpreted by the ulema, imams, and sheikhs. Above them is the Khalifah (Caliph) who is "God's shadow" on Earth, ruling over all Moslems. There is no plurality. There is the unyielding insistence that all mankind accept Islam's supremacy. There isn't even the slightest pretense of that one, true hallmark of political freedom: the ability to vote the leader out of office. This is Islam's greatest weakness. It is what makes it so potent, yet it is also what dooms it to failure. In the end, people want freedom and religion, which is, of course, a good thing. And there's no better place on the planet to find the lawfully protected right to have both of these things than in the West.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Above them is the Khalifah (Caliph) who is "God's shadow" on Earth, ruling over all Moslems.

I like the bracketed English transliteration just in case anywone didn't know...

What I don't like are supremacists of any form. And you're a 'Western' supremacist. One who's clearly lacking any contact with the people he wishes to cast labels on and categorize.

And yeh - IbnM was born and raised in the West... he's not 'claiming' anything.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by Variable

I like the bracketed English transliteration just in case anywone didn't know...

OK

What I don't like are supremacists of any form. And you're a 'Western' supremacist. One who's clearly lacking any contact with the people he wishes to cast labels on and categorize.

Not true at all. I've spent time in both the KSA and Egypt.

And yeh - IbnM was born and raised in the West... he's not 'claiming' anything.

How odd that he doesn't choose to live in any one of those storied islamic paradises.

Ah well. I guess it's just a cross he'll have to bear.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Not true at all. I've spent time in both the KSA and Egypt.

Really, tell us about it.

How odd that he doesn't choose to live in any one of those storied islamic paradises.

Ah well. I guess it's just a cross he'll have to bear.

Maybe you should actually get to know someone before you start making judgments on them... because you clearly have no idea of what you're talking about. In fact you're coming across as border-line retarded.

[ShiaHazara]

Originally Posted by Macaca

That is the epitome of the southern white-trash way of thinking,subhan'Allah. This man's true trailer trash.

like you're any different? too bad you're wahhabified and backward.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by Variable

Really, tell us about it.

Gulf 1 vet.

Maybe you should actually get to know someone before you start making judgments on them... because you clearly have no idea of what you're talking about. In fact you're coming across as border-line retarded.

Your comment is self-contradicting.

How embarrassing.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Veritas

It’s not a matter of maturity as to whether or not you live in the West, as you claim.

I never said it was. I simply asked you to be mature enough to accept the fact that I was born in the West, and live there also. Your earlier statement implied that I was ignorant of some values Western which you claim are inherent. But you don't have to advise me as to what those values are, simply by virtue of the fact that I was born in the West, was educated there and I live there also.

In other words, you assumed that I was an outsider and that you knew more than me about "the Western world".

And I merely asked you to be mature enough to accept that your assumption was wrong.

We hear a lot of this flowery language you proffer. However, the reality is far removed from the glossy veneer of no compulsion in religion you claim.

Since your continuous display of ignorance demands that you be publicly schooled in that which you know nothing of, I will oblige.

This is nothing about flowery language. I don't play that game. I tell you straight up like it is.

Verse 256 from the second chapter of the Qur'an states - [using Marmaduke Pickthal's translation]: There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

The background of this verse is relating to an incident whereby an Arab pagan couple had initially embraced Judaism, before the advent of Prophet Muhammad, because they were keenly aware that their observance of multiple and false deities was wrong. Their kids also embraced Judaism. The Jews at that time knew and were expecting the arrival of another Prophet, so this couple was also aware of the same.

When Prophet Muhammad did indeed arrive, this couple accepted Islam as their faith and wanted their kids to do so also. The kids refused and stayed with their Judaic faith. Their parents tried pressuring them to become Muslim and thereupon, this verse as you see above was sent down by God indicating that you cannot force anyone to become Muslim.

And thus, this has formed an integral part of the Islamic belief, that one must become Muslim by free choice and not by compulsion.

Above them is the Khalifah (Caliph) who is "God's shadow" on Earth, ruling over all Moslems. There is no plurality. There is the unyielding insistence that all mankind accept Islam's supremacy. There isn't even the slightest pretense of that one, true hallmark of political freedom: the ability to vote the leader out of office.

Wrong again.

Under an Islamic system of governance, it is the common people that elect a group of leaders who are known to be competent, reliable, and trustworthy, to represent them in the government. And then of this group, they elect the formal figurehead - the Khalifah.

It becomes an obligation on this leader to lead the people appropriately according to Islam, and it becomes incumbent upon the people to follow him as long as he leads them appropriately. If he is found to be in dereliction of his duties as the sovereign leader, then the council of leaders that was voted into power prior to him, has the power to remove him from his post.

Feel free to open your mind and learn a great many things about Islam that you do not know. If however, you came here with the intent to argue and make absurd statements, then please don't cry when we put you in your place.

And as always, thanks for trying.

Better to try and fail miserably than to have never tried at all.

[gmk]

Originally Posted by Veritas

The hateful attitudes of Moslems toward those who prefer not to accept a Koran seems like a lot of wasted energy. As remarkable as it may seem, we in the U.S. have this ideal called freedom of religion. It means that no one is forced to accept your compulsion to press your religious beliefs on others.

If your sensibilities are offended by those who reject your religion, you will need to be mature enough to accept that.

The gift of a Qur'an was not meant to force Islam on the legislators. Anyone who thinks that's what it meant has a huge chip on their shoulder, or is insecure about their own beliefs. I have other holy books in my collection, it doesn't mean that I follow those religions in place of my own. It means I care enough to understand those who are different than me, and appreciate that there are many things that we as humans have in common. And there are differences as well, but I will not die of a heart attack if I read about them. I know this is a hard concept for some people to swallow, but it's called being educated.

The rejection of this gift by those legislators sent a clear message to Muslims: you don't belong here. Or perhaps... this country is only for Christians. So much for freedom of religion.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

I never said it was. I simply asked you to be mature enough to accept the fact that I was born in the West, and live there also. Your earlier statement implied that I was ignorant of some values Western which you claim are inherent. But you don't have to advise me as to what those values are, simply by virtue of the fact that I was born in the West, was educated there and I live there also.

In other words, you assumed that I was an outsider and that you knew more than me about "the Western world".

And I merely asked you to be mature enough to accept that your assumption was wrong.
[/font][/color]

I made no assumptions and thus your hysterical ranting, while comical, is ill-conceived.

Since your continuous display of ignorance demands that you be publicly schooled in that which you know nothing of, I will oblige.

This is nothing about flowery language. I don't play that game. I tell you straight up like it is.

Verse 256 from the second chapter of the Qur'an states - [using Marmaduke Pickthal's translation]: [/font][/color]There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

The background of this verse is relating to an incident whereby an Arab pagan couple had initially embraced Judaism, before the advent of Prophet Muhammad, because they were keenly aware that their observance of multiple and false deities was wrong. Their kids also embraced Judaism. The Jews at that time knew and were expecting the arrival of another Prophet, so this couple was also aware of the same.

When Prophet Muhammad did indeed arrive, this couple accepted Islam as their faith and wanted their kids to do so also. The kids refused and stayed with their Judaic faith. Their parents tried pressuring them to become Muslim and thereupon, this verse as you see above was sent down by God indicating that you cannot force anyone to become Muslim.

And thus, this has formed an integral part of the Islamic belief, that one must become Muslim by free choice and not by compulsion.
[color=#222222][font=Arial]



Wrong again.

Under an Islamic system of governance, it is the common people that elect a group of leaders who are known to be competent, reliable, and trustworthy, to represent them in the government. And then of this group, they elect the formal figurehead - the Khalifah.

It becomes an obligation on this leader to lead the people appropriately according to Islam, and it becomes incumbent upon the people to follow him as long as he leads them appropriately. If he is found to be in dereliction of his duties as the sovereign leader, then the council of leaders that was voted into power prior to him, has the power to remove him from his post.

Feel free to open your mind and learn a great many things about Islam that you do not know. If however, you came here with the intent to argue and make absurd statements, then please don't cry when we put you in your place.

And as always, thanks for trying.

Better to try and fail miserably than to have never tried at all.

Your frantic attempts at glossing over what you are hoping others won't address is the cause of your confusion. You should actually take the time to read what your holy text actually writes out. You would find it instructive.

Let's go to the source material, shall we?

You neglect to acknowledge that the vast majority Christians don't follow the draconian laws of the Old Testament, while for moslems, the numerous Koranic injunctions to fight, kill, and subjugate the infidel are still viewed to be God's literal word.

The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan. —Koran 4:76

Therefore fight for the cause of God. You are accountable for none but yourself. Rouse the faithful: perchance God will overthrow the might of the unbelievers. Mightier is God and more terrible is His punishment. —Koran 4:84

Let not the unbelievers think that they will ever get away. They have not the power so to do. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy, and others besides them who are unknown to you but known to God. All that you give in the cause of God shall be repaid to you. You shall not be wronged. —Koran 8:60

Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. —Koran 9:29

Tell the unbelievers that if they mend their ways their past shall be forgiven; but if they persist in sin, let them reflect on the fate of bygone nations.

Make war on them until idolatry is shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme. —Koran 8:38-39

When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful. —Koran 9:5

Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. —Koran 9:29
It's not all a walk in the park...

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Veritas

I made no assumptions and thus your hysterical ranting, while comical, is ill-conceived.

Denial is the most predictable of human emotions. Its pretty clear to everyone that you made a lot of assumptions.

Your frantic attempts at glossing over what you are hoping others won't address is the cause of your confusion. You should actually take the time to read what your holy text actually writes out. You would find it instructive

I've taken more time to read it and its exegesis than you have. I'm quite familiar with it. You on the other hand, are not - as evidenced by your immature cut and paste job.

Please, bring something new. We've seen plenty of riff-raff like you come and go over the years.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Gulf 1 vet.

Great, because you were some remf on a base in Saudi, you're an expert on how the average Muslim sees the world.

That speaks volumes.

[Veritas]

[quote=IbnMardhiyah;35571]Denial is the most predictable of human emotions. Its pretty clear to everyone that you made a lot of assumptions. [quote]
That was quite the backstroke. You should try out for the Olympic swim team.

I've taken more time to read it and its exegesis than you have. I'm quite familiar with it. You on the other hand, are not - as evidenced by your immature cut and paste job.

Please, bring something new. We've seen plenty of riff-raff like you come and go over the years.

Yet quite revealingly, you've chosen to continue with your usual juvenile banter as opposed to actually responding with a coherent response.