[GOTFIVEONIT]

Mohsin insisted there are no PKK camps in the Amadiya area.

But he also said dozens or hundreds of villages near the border had been evacuated and burned during Saddam Hussein campaign against Kurds and most remained empty. The Kurdish regional government has no control over this "no man's land," he said.

The area consists of range after range of arid mountains topped by sawtooth rocks, towering over narrow, twisting river valleys. "A million men could hide in those mountains," Mohsin said.

Many Iraqi Kurd officials suspect Turkey's real aim is to try to destabilize northern Iraq, the most peaceful part of the country, to discourage separatist sentiment among the millions of Kurds living in southeastern Turkey.

The PKK has been fighting against the Turkish government since 1984 in a war that has caused 30,000 deaths. While it previously demanded a separate Kurdish state in Turkey's southeast, it more recently has called for an autonomous region - similar to the region that the Kurds have in northern Iraq.

While the United States and Iraq's central government in Baghdad have labeled the PKK a terrorist organization, most Iraqi Kurds appear to regard its guerrillas as freedom fighters. They accuse the Turkish government of a long history of suppressing the Kurdish language and culture.

Many people here look to the United States to prevent Turkey from launching a major offensive into Iraq, some suggesting that Washington should respond with military force to any incursion.

"The U.S. is an occupying power," said Fahmi Salman, another regional Kurdistan Democratic Party official in Adamiya. "It is the duty of the United States to defend Kurdistan."

Salman said that even if the Americans don't help, the Kurds are prepared to defend their homes.

"The Kurds don't like war fighting," he said. "But if this happens, it will be a popular war. It will be against the people, and the people will fight."

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Bangladeshis are happy that their country was created and would not want to live as Pakistani subjects, in much the same way that Kurds would be happy if their country was created.

then why didnt they demand a bangladesh in 1947 when the whole region was being partitioned off by the british? why did the bengali's vote overwhelmingly for the Muslim League under the Pakistan platform in the parliamentary elections of 1946?

in fact, why did they vote to join pakistan in the 1947 referundum? Even the Northwest Frontier Province of Pakistan voted against joining pakistan in that referundum.

The only reason the Bengalis of east pakistan revolted, was because a bengali won the 1970 elections, and daddy bhutto couldnt stand it, since he won in west pakistan, and conspired with the army to remove a duley elected leader, a bengali muslim. And if turks are not careful, the same scenario can befall them as well.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Bangladeshis are happy that their country was created and would not want to live as Pakistani subjects, in much the same way that Kurds would be happy if their country was created.

then why didnt they demand a bangladesh in 1947 when the whole region was being partitioned off by the british? why did the bengali's vote overwhelmingly for the Muslim League under the Pakistan platform in the parliamentary elections of 1946?

in fact, why did they vote to join pakistan in the 1947 referundum? Even the Northwest Frontier Province of Pakistan voted against joining pakistan in that referundum.

The only reason the Bengalis of east pakistan revolted, was because a bengali won the 1970 elections, and daddy bhutto couldnt stand it, since he won in west pakistan, and conspired with the army to remove a duley elected leader, a bengali muslim. And if turks are not careful, the same scenario can befall them as well.

and if you think for one minute the coptic egyptians have any love for the muslims of egypt, try reading the egypt message board over on aol sometime. its quite an eyeopener on how they bash muslims left and right over there. im sure those coptics would love to form thier own nation out of egypt.

[MossadConspiracy]

Bangladeshis in 1971 are different from Bengalis in 1947 and both are different from Bangladeshis in 2007. Ideas are different, attitudes are different, politics is different, beliefs are different.

There are coptic bigots in Egypt and among Egyptian communities here. There are muslim bigots in Egypt and here. Most Egyptian muslims, copts, catholics, and jews are not bigoted. But like i explained, a coptic state wouldnt be possible because of the way coptic people are spread throughout Egypt and the way they are integrated into local and national society there.

If the copts were a seperate ethnicity who all lived in one part of Egypt like turkey's Kurds are, then yes a state would be possible for them.

ws

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Bangladeshis are happy that their country was created and would not want to live as Pakistani subjects, in much the same way that Kurds would be happy if their country was created.

what about the island of aceh in indonesia? you have militants fighting there against the indonesian govt on independence, even though everyone is muslim.

how about sri lanka? you have the worst terrorists in the world, the "liberation tigers of tamil elam" aka LTTE, fighting for independence. should they have a seperate state too?

im very curious as to your views about cyprus. you see cyprus is divided into two halves, one turkish and one greek. Turkish cyprus is only recognized by turkey, the only country in the world to recognize them as an independent state. In fact, the war with greece still haunts the region to this very day. Should the island be divided or be united into one union?

i mean after all you have haiti and the dominican republic each sharing the island of hispanolia.

[MossadConspiracy]

i dont really have an opinion about indonesia or sri lanka because i havent read enough to consider myself informed about the different viewpoints and causes that people are fighting for

when it comes to cyprus, its pretty simple. Cyprus is an independent country. Everyone recognizes that. Theres no conflict about that- its an independent country, period. Whether Cyprus should ultimately be one country or two is up to its residents, but it seems to make more sense (and its much more likely) that cyprus will be permanently divided.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Bangladeshis in 1971 are different from Bengalis in 1947 and both are different from Bangladeshis in 2007. Ideas are different, attitudes are different, politics is different, beliefs are different.

There are coptic bigots in Egypt and among Egyptian communities here. There are muslim bigots in Egypt and here. Most Egyptian muslims, copts, catholics, and jews are not bigoted. But like i explained, a coptic state wouldnt be possible because of the way coptic people are spread throughout Egypt and the way they are integrated into local and national society there.

If the copts were a seperate ethnicity who all lived in one part of Egypt like turkey's Kurds are, then yes a state would be possible for them.

ws

who says kurds are not spread out over turkey? are you claiming that there are no kurds living in Istanbul, the onetime capital of the Othman Caliphate? you say coptics are 'integrated' into society, but you seem to forget one thing. they are christians not muslims.

for the record i dont support muslim ethnicities seperating themselves from the muslim nation. i dont care if they are kurds, or baluchistanis, or muslims in the indonesian island of aceh. its pointless for any muslim region to seperate themselves from a muslim-majority country. And i might even include bangladesh into that equation too, if it wasnt on the otherside of the sub=continent seperated from west pakistan by india.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

i dont really have an opinion about indonesia or sri lanka because i havent read enough to consider myself informed about the different viewpoints and causes that people are fighting for

when it comes to cyprus, its pretty simple. Cyprus is an independent country. Everyone recognizes that. Theres no conflict about that- its an independent country, period. Whether Cyprus should ultimately be one country or two is up to its residents, but it seems to make more sense (and its much more likely) that cyprus will be permanently divided.

well those regions are fighting for independence from thier states. i dont know why the island of aceh wants independence from indonesia, because everyone there is Muslim, living in the world's most populous Muslim nation. But in Sri Lanka, the Tamil Tigers are fighting for an independent Tamil state - based on thier own language from the Sinhalese language majority of Sri Lanka. sound familar?

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

who says kurds are not spread out over turkey? are you claiming that there are no kurds living in Istanbul, the onetime capital of the Othman Caliphate? you say coptics are 'integrated' into society, but you seem to forget one thing. they are christians not muslims.

for the record i dont support muslim ethnicities seperating themselves from the muslim nation. i dont care if they are kurds, or baluchistanis, or muslims in the indonesian island of aceh. its pointless for any muslim region to seperate themselves from a muslim-majority country. And i might even include bangladesh into that equation too, if it wasnt on the otherside of the sub=continent seperated from west pakistan by india.

Kurds are spread throughout the entire world, however there are certain regions in eastern turkey are predominantly made up of kurds. There are also regions like that in northern Iraq, northeastern syria, and western Iran. All of them are connected together into one continuous piece of land with most of the world's kurds in it, and many more kurds than other kinds of people

Copts are christians, but they are Egyptians just like every other Egyptian. Coptic-Muslim brotherhood in Egypt is one of the most important pillars of a stable Egyptian state.

You might not support Bangladesh but the Bangladeshis do, and it took a war for them to create that country, but they did it. Same goes for the Kurds. They might win their country through war, or peace, or their national dream might be destroyed by Turkey or Iran or the USA or somebody else, the way everyone in this topic seems to want. I'm hoping it will come in a peaceful manner

ws

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

well those regions are fighting for independence from thier states. i dont know why the island of aceh wants independence from indonesia, because everyone there is Muslim, living in the world's most populous Muslim nation. But in Sri Lanka, the Tamil Tigers are fighting for an independent Tamil state - based on thier own language from the Sinhalese language majority of Sri Lanka. sound familar?

like i said, i would have to read more about it to make an opinion. I know the basics that you mentioned

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Kurds are spread throughout the entire world, however there are certain regions in eastern turkey are predominantly made up of kurds. There are also regions like that in northern Iraq, northeastern syria, and western Iran. All of them are connected together into one continuous piece of land with most of the world's kurds in it, and many more kurds than other kinds of people

Copts are christians, but they are Egyptians just like every other Egyptian. Coptic-Muslim brotherhood in Egypt is one of the most important pillars of a stable Egyptian state.

You might not support Bangladesh but the Bangladeshis do, and it took a war for them to create that country, but they did it. Same goes for the Kurds. They might win their country through war, or peace, or their national dream might be destroyed by Turkey or Iran or the USA or somebody else, the way everyone in this topic seems to want. I'm hoping it will come in a peaceful manner

ws

you make that declaration, but even the pkk, the group doing the fighting, no longer is making demands for independence, so why are you? and i didnt say i didnt support bangladesh, i said i might lump them into those other categories. because geography speaks for itself, it just wasnt feasble to have a country seperated into two wings the way pakistan was between 1947 - 1971. Also, the only reason Bangladeh was created, was because India's Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi, decided to join Pakistan's civil war, and that helped defeat General Yahya Khan and the surrender of Pakistani forces.

I mean you tell me, which is more important being a Muslim or country?

are Kurds Muslims, and that too Sunni Muslims, or not?

i mean you speak about them as if they are some far off chinese or something.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

you make that declaration, but even the pkk, the group doing the fighting, no longer is making demands for independence, so why are you? and i didnt say i didnt support bangladesh, i said i might lump them into those other categories. because geography speaks for itself, it just wasnt feasble to have a country seperated into two wings the way pakistan was between 1947 - 1971. Also, the only reason Bangladeh was created, was because India's Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi, decided to join Pakistan's civil war, and that helped defeat General Yahya Khan and the surrender of Pakistani forces.

I mean you tell me, which is more important being a Muslim or country?

are Kurds Muslims, and that too Sunni Muslims, or not?

i mean you speak about them as if they are some far off chinese or something.

i'm not kurdish so i'm not demanding anything, but thats what they want. Its very clearly what the Iraqi kurds want, every policy they've made since the fall of saddam shouts independence. And the Kurds across the borders from them seem to want the same.

Why not just let them vote. Let the Iraqi provinces vote, let the Turkish provinces vote. A referendum on independence, its the most obvious and accurate and fair way to decide. Of course its not going to ever happen, because the Kurds would vote for independence overwhelmingly in every place where the votes are held, but it would be the most fair way to decide.

You did bring up a very good point, which i didnt mention- Kurdish independence would come with alot of violence. Even though they want it, have the right to be independent, and deserve to be independent, there would be alot of bloodshed and carnage connected to realistically establishing a Kurdish state. And that has to be considered.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

i'm not kurdish so i'm not demanding anything, but thats what they want. Its very clearly what the Iraqi kurds want, every policy they've made since the fall of saddam shouts independence. And the Kurds across the borders from them seem to want the same.

Why not just let them vote. Let the Iraqi provinces vote, let the Turkish provinces vote. A referendum on independence, its the most obvious and accurate and fair way to decide. Of course its not going to ever happen, because the Kurds would vote for independence overwhelmingly in every place where the votes are held, but it would be the most fair way to decide.

You did bring up a very good point, which i didnt mention- Kurdish independence would come with alot of violence. Even though they want it, have the right to be independent, and deserve to be independent, there would be alot of bloodshed and carnage connected to realistically establishing a Kurdish state. And that has to be considered.

you keep saying they want it, but the pkk themselves have dropped those demands and are willing to settle for autonomy. i mean do your plans for a plebiscite include Syria, Iraq, and Iran as well? Should Iraq be a solely Arab country, or a multi-ethnic country?

why must a plebscite be held when th simple solution is a seperate province under a turkish federation? after all its working in Iraq. The current President of Iraq, Jalal Talabani, is himself Kurdish.

So you tell me, which is more important, nation or Islam?

Are the Kurds not Muslims? That too Sunni Muslims on top of it?

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

you keep saying they want it, but the pkk themselves have dropped those demands and are willing to settle for autonomy. i mean do your plans for a plebiscite include Syria, Iraq, and Iran as well? Should Iraq be a solely Arab country, or a multi-ethnic country?

why must a plebscite be held when th simple solution is a seperate province under a turkish federation? after all its working in Iraq. The current President of Iraq, Jalal Talabani, is himself Kurdish.

So you tell me, which is more important, nation or Islam?

Are the Kurds not Muslims? That too Sunni Muslims on top of it?

Well if it could be done then it should include the Kurdish regions of syria, iraq, iran, and turkey. Its never going to happen, but if it did, everyone knows how the Kurds would vote.

The system in Iraq is working because Iraq is a federal country, which allows provinces to unite into de-facto countries like the Kurdish Autonomous Region. Turkey's whole constitution would have to be rewritten from scratch to allow something like that to happen. But even Iraq's system is seen as a stepping stone to independence by the Kurds. For example, they no longer fly the Iraqi national flag over most of their government offices, they instead use the Kurdish flag. They want to be independent

If supporting independence rather than continuing to be subjects of other states with muslim majorities means that a nation of people is picking nation over Islam, then the Kurds obviously choose nation over Islam. If choosing to fight and kill other muslims rather than letting them be independent in order to keep your nation whole means you are picking nation over islam, then obviously the Turks choose nation over Islam.