[MossadConspiracy]

everyone is where they are. The Kurds are a real nation of people who have been where they are for thousands of years, and they want to rule themselves, so they should rule themselves instead of being ruled by Turks or others. Thats it.

All of the Turks here are simply being nationalistic although they'll all say that nationalism is some great evil. None of the Turks would tolerate being subjects of the Kurds, even if the Kurds do give seats to some of their parties while banning others. And yet they are more than happy to subject Kurds to the same situation that they would never accept for themselves.

ws

[ReFresher]

are we nationalistic? I m not , sure there is everywhere nationalistic...
We are talking about PKK and not kurdish nation... If they want a Kurdishland they should build this in Iraq or whatever but not Turkeys land..
PKK is maybe 1 percent of all kurds.. We Do Not have Any dust for them in Turkey. Our brothers and sisters, who is kurd too in Turkey, they are happy and do not have terrorist acts... As I told before, that all is a deal, if could live 300 years, will be there IRAQ, SYRIA,TURKEY,EGYPT or like this?, if we do this deal, MiddleEast Project ....Sure we are same like a arab-, pakistan-, hindunationalistic.
If they were not nationalistic, so where we are...?
That what you say is a cheap thoughts...And you are thinking like nonmuslim talking about Turkey..
Even there is a arab and all nationalistic....
Whatever Allah swt is best rule....


I think there is no way to disucs anyway..... We are against Killing, we are ready to defen our land because, we are hapy alhamdlillah to hear every time azan in Turkey..
The PKK what you are talking almost not accept islamic rules..I dont talk about Kurds, I mean the PKK....We do know them good..

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

A Kurdish Autonomous Region in Turkey like the one in Iraq could be a good thing to reduce tensions but in the end the Kurds will still want to exercise their right as a nation to be independent. As long as that right is denied there are going to be problems (in turkey, iraq, syria, iran)

not true. the real problems occur is due to ethnic nationalism from the turkish side. if that was given up and everyone saw themselves as Muslim first, these problems would go away. After all, even Salahuddin was a Kurd.

they dont even need full autonomy. just a seperate province under a federal national system. If you think about it, here in america, our cities, counties and states have extraordinary autonomy compared to most other countries.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

everyone is where they are. The Kurds are a real nation of people who have been where they are for thousands of years, and they want to rule themselves, so they should rule themselves instead of being ruled by Turks or others. Thats it.

All of the Turks here are simply being nationalistic although they'll all say that nationalism is some great evil. None of the Turks would tolerate being subjects of the Kurds, even if the Kurds do give seats to some of their parties while banning others. And yet they are more than happy to subject Kurds to the same situation that they would never accept for themselves.

ws

tell that to the kurds i saw on al jazeera who are fighting the pkk. they say i was born in turkey, its the only country i have ever known and i dont want to leave. the problem is that people dont see themselves as muslim first, once they do all these nationalistic ideas will go away. that's like saying the baluchi's fighting the pakistani govt are a real nation, they want thier own blah blah blah. ethnic nationalism is the main reason why pakistan, a muslim republic, lost its eastern wing, and if the turks are not careful, the same thing can happen to them too.

the only way to solve the problem in turkey, is to create a separate province of kurdistan and allow them to govern themselves, the way eliot spitzer governs the state of new york.
which means, the preservation of thier culture, thier language, their customs and heritage. which includes, the arts, literature, media etc. kurdish should be taught in the provincial schools, and used in official provincial govt business, such as on documents, etc. do that, and this whole mess will easily be solved. it works in other countries, it works in iran, in pakistan, afghanistan, and even india, countries that have countless numbers of provinces and states based on language.

in India for example, believe it or not, but the official language of the country is english. because there are so many different langauges, english is the official langauge. the army communicates in english. parliament conducts its business in english. but the states on the other hand, deal with thier own regional languages. which means that students have to learn all the languages, both the regional language and the english language. part of the big reason why these regional linguistic peoples dont try to breakaway, is because of religion. for pakistan and afghanistan its islam, and for india, its hinduism. if anything, the only seperatist movements inside india stem from religion, not language.

[Anderson]

People should get jobs and get a life instead of whining about independence and crap like that.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by ReFresher

are we nationalistic? I m not , sure there is everywhere nationalistic...
We are talking about PKK and not kurdish nation... If they want a Kurdishland they should build this in Iraq or whatever but not Turkeys land..
PKK is maybe 1 percent of all kurds.. We Do Not have Any dust for them in Turkey. Our brothers and sisters, who is kurd too in Turkey, they are happy and do not have terrorist acts... As I told before, that all is a deal, if could live 300 years, will be there IRAQ, SYRIA,TURKEY,EGYPT or like this?, if we do this deal, MiddleEast Project ....Sure we are same like a arab-, pakistan-, hindunationalistic.
If they were not nationalistic, so where we are...?
That what you say is a cheap thoughts...And you are thinking like nonmuslim talking about Turkey..
Even there is a arab and all nationalistic....
Whatever Allah swt is best rule....


I think there is no way to disucs anyway..... We are against Killing, we are ready to defen our land because, we are hapy alhamdlillah to hear every time azan in Turkey..
The PKK what you are talking almost not accept islamic rules..I dont talk about Kurds, I mean the PKK....We do know them good..

^^ proof that you guys are nationalistic. Not that its a bad thing, but you just have to recognize it, then think about the flip side- Kurdish nationalism and their national dream.

ws

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

not true. the real problems occur is due to ethnic nationalism from the turkish side. if that was given up and everyone saw themselves as Muslim first, these problems would go away. After all, even Salahuddin was a Kurd.

they dont even need full autonomy. just a seperate province under a federal national system. If you think about it, here in america, our cities, counties and states have extraordinary autonomy compared to most other countries.

people dont see themselves as muslim first. Maybe someday that will happen but it never has in the past and it isnt happening now.

ws

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

people dont see themselves as muslim first. Maybe someday that will happen but it never has in the past and it isnt happening now.

ws

in india they do, but then again those muslims are surrounded by 800 million hindus. if people started seeing themselves as muslims first, these problems wont occur. its part of the reason why there is a huge islamic revivle in the middle east, because arab nationalism in itself was a joke, and never really worked. its why palestinians choose hamas over the p.l.o.

[MossadConspiracy]

Hamas is a nationalist group. Religious and nationalist arent mutually exclusive.

ws

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Hamas is a nationalist group. Religious and nationalist arent mutually exclusive.

ws

hamas is an islamic party, just like hezbullah is. the only difference is, hamas deals solely in their country, palestine. i really doubt you will find george habash of the p.f.l.p. (popular front for the liberation fo palestine) or Hanan Ashrawi, joining hamas anytime soon

[MossadConspiracy]

Obviously rival leaders arent going to join Hamas, but as you just explained its a nationalist movement. Just read their charter or listen to their leaders or observe their actions sometime. Just because somebody quotes the Quran and has a beard doesnt mean they cant be nationalists from whatever country they are from

Which is why all the religious fanatics from Turkey (including here) are in a nationalist uproar over the Kurds daring to stake a claim to a bunch of dirt within the borders of Turkey upon which a majority of Kurds live and have lived for thousands of years.

You can be religious and nationalistic, most religious people are

ws

PS: Hamas is not just like Hizbullah

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Obviously rival leaders arent going to join Hamas, but as you just explained its a nationalist movement. Just read their charter or listen to their leaders or observe their actions sometime. Just because somebody quotes the Quran and has a beard doesnt mean they cant be nationalists from whatever country they are from

Which is why all the religious fanatics from Turkey (including here) are in a nationalist uproar over the Kurds daring to stake a claim to a bunch of dirt within the borders of Turkey upon which a majority of Kurds live and have lived for thousands of years.

You can be religious and nationalistic, most religious people are

ws

PS: Hamas is not just like Hizbullah

if your talking about muslim nationalism thats a different thing altogether, because thats what im talking about. hamas and hezbullah are both islamic parties. and you missed the point i was making, i mean how many christians are members or supporters of hamas? how many christians up in lebanon, and there are plenty, are members and supporters of hezbullah? how many do you think end up voting for them? its not just about qouting from the quran. these are the parties of muslims, who represents muslims.

now as for turkey, its not simply 'islamic fanatics' your forgetting the most important thing, that everyone in turkey is muslim. 98% in fact. and sunni on top of it. why should the country then be broken up into two seperate states? even the pkk gave up on that, they just want autonomy. now if they were two seperate religions i could understand, but they are not, its the same religion, same sect, simply two different languages. i mean where does it stop? should berbers now have thier own country? would you support partitioning off egypt into muslim and coptic qaurters? i mean the coptics were there first after all, loong before you arabs showed up in egypt. i mean technically its thier land, going on your own argument.

why stop there? the lebanese fought a 15 year long civil war, over religion. why not divide lebanan up between the christians and the muslims? even though that they were all arabs, they still couldnt get along, not even to this day, they still demand the syrians to stay out, fellow arabs.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

if your talking about muslim nationalism thats a different thing altogether, because thats what im talking about. hamas and hezbullah are both islamic parties. and you missed the point i was making, i mean how many christians are members or supporters of hamas? how many christians up in lebanon, and there are plenty, are members and supporters of hezbullah? how many do you think end up voting for them? its not just about qouting from the quran. these are the parties of muslims, who represents muslims.

They are muslim parties and are also nationalist parties. Hamas are Palestinian nationalists. Hizbullah can be said to be Lebanese nationalists or they at least speak like nationalists. By the way, Hamas had a Christian in a very prominent spot, like a mayor of some major town in Gaza or a cabinet member or member of parliament. I dont remember exactly and i dont know what became of him now that their government fell apart. But anyway, I'm just saying that

Originally Posted by GOTFIVEONIT

now as for turkey, its not simply 'islamic fanatics' your forgetting the most important thing, that everyone in turkey is muslim. 98% in fact. and sunni on top of it. why should the country then be broken up into two seperate states? even the pkk gave up on that, they just want autonomy. now if they were two seperate religions i could understand, but they are not, its the same religion, same sect, simply two different languages. i mean where does it stop? should berbers now have thier own country? would you support partitioning off egypt into muslim and coptic qaurters? i mean the coptics were there first after all, loong before you arabs showed up in egypt. i mean technically its thier land, going on your own argument.

Even though theyre all muslim, the Kurds want to be independent and to rule themselves rather than to be subjects of Turkey. Turks dont want to live under the Kurdish flag either. Just look at how all the Turkomen fled from Kurdish rule in northern Iraq and left the country or took refuge with the Arabs. If Turks can have their own country then why not Kurds?

If Egyptian copts were localized in one area of Egypt, or mainly in one area, and they wanted to establish a country for themselves there, then I dont see why they shouldnt. However, copts are spread throughout Egypt, they have no nationalist ambitions, no national homeland other than all of Egypt itself just like the rest of us, no infrastructure for establishing a state, a high degree of integration in Egyptian society, etc. Just to clarify something, copts and muslims in Egypt are all one ethnicity. It isnt copts and 'arabs'. We are all the descendents of copts, and of Arabs, and Turks and Nubians and whoever else. Religion and ethnicity are not related to each other in Egypt. That doesnt mean countries cant be divided across religious lines.

[GOTFIVEONIT]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

They are muslim parties and are also nationalist parties. Hamas are Palestinian nationalists. Hizbullah can be said to be Lebanese nationalists or they at least speak like nationalists. By the way, Hamas had a Christian in a very prominent spot, like a mayor of some major town in Gaza or a cabinet member or member of parliament. I dont remember exactly and i dont know what became of him now that their government fell apart. But anyway, I'm just saying that



Even though theyre all muslim, the Kurds want to be independent and to rule themselves rather than to be subjects of Turkey. Turks dont want to live under the Kurdish flag either. Just look at how all the Turkomen fled from Kurdish rule in northern Iraq and left the country or took refuge with the Arabs. If Turks can have their own country then why not Kurds?

If Egyptian copts were localized in one area of Egypt, or mainly in one area, and they wanted to establish a country for themselves there, then I dont see why they shouldnt. However, copts are spread throughout Egypt, they have no nationalist ambitions, no national homeland other than all of Egypt itself just like the rest of us, no infrastructure for establishing a state, a high degree of integration in Egyptian society, etc. Just to clarify something, copts and muslims in Egypt are all one ethnicity. It isnt copts and 'arabs'. We are all the descendents of copts, and of Arabs, and Turks and Nubians and whoever else. Religion and ethnicity are not related to each other in Egypt. That doesnt mean countries cant be divided across religious lines.

ya but what about your country? what about the berbers? you already have the western sahara trying to leave morrocco, you have half a dozen ethnic groups in iran and afghanistan alone. and they have been there for thousands of years. i mean where does it stop? look at iraq, iraq has many different sects and ethnicities. does that mean that iraq should be partitioned based on those differences? what about lebanan? these people fought a daam civil war for 15 long years and the christians there still cry for the syrians to stay out of thier affairs, even though they are fellow arabs.

thats why i said, the only solution to the kurdish problem in turkey is simply a seperate province of kurdistan inside turkey itself. based on langauge. other countries do it, right there in that very same region, why cant this be applicable to turkey also? the main important thing is that everyone is muslim, your practically talking about the same culture there. one state of turkey, with different provinces based on language, and theres the solution. you keep saying that people in kurdistan want independence. even the pkk gave up those demands. you have kurds armed to the teeth by the turkish govt to fight the pkk and they say they dont want to leave turkey.

african-americans have been here in america for 400 years. alot longer than all those people who got off the boat at ellis island from ireland, norway, italy, france, germany, poland, sweden etc. they have thier own customs, thier own culture, thier own traditions, even thier own dialect of english. should we now carve out a seperate nation for blacks in america?