[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

With due respect to all you guys, I don't see why a good Kurd is necessarily a Kurd who doesn't want an independent Kurdistan. If I were a Kurd, I'd want an independent Kurdistan, too. We're not living in the days of khilafa, and every other sub-nation today has an independent state in the region. Look at Gulf Arabs, for instance. We didn't need to have 7 countries (this includes the Arab part of Iraq). We could have easily been one large country. Our dialects are very similar, and the slight variations are trivial.

The Kurds, on the other hand, are a distinct race. They have their own culture, their own cuisine and - most importantly - their own language. If they want to be communists, by all means! It's their choice. If Turkey wants to be secular; it's Turkey's choice. Let's not impose our collective views on others. I'm sure there are Kurds who don't want to live under communist rule, but that is for them to figure out. For that, they'll need their own country and a multi-party political system.

Let's imagine a different scenario with Turks being the scattered community (race/language) living in Kurdistan and other countries in the region. Wouldn't the Turks want their own country? After all, they have their own history to teach. They have their own language to celebrate. Even if they were granted equal rights (which can never happen), they'd still feel left behind. Everybody else has a state. Why not them?

As an Arab, I could easily be nationalistic about this and object to the secession of Kurdistan from Iraq. But there's no need to be. Just because the PKK are active and violent, that doesn't mean they're going to be the future of Kurdistan. To say that we'd then have to deal with a violent neighbour is just a lame excuse.

I hope we all try to empathise with the Kurds. No matter what, living as a restricted minority is not really nice.

Turkey has always been uncomfortable with the national aspirations of their subjects, they just dont have too many subjects left

[Ugur]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

With due respect to all you guys, I don't see why a good Kurd is necessarily a Kurd who doesn't want an independent Kurdistan. If I were a Kurd, I'd want an independent Kurdistan, too. We're not living in the days of khilafa, and every other sub-nation today has an independent state in the region. Look at Gulf Arabs, for instance. We didn't need to have 7 countries (this includes the Arab part of Iraq). We could have easily been one large country. Our dialects are very similar, and the slight variations are trivial.

The Kurds, on the other hand, are a distinct race. They have their own culture, their own cuisine and - most importantly - their own language. If they want to be communists, by all means! It's their choice. If Turkey wants to be secular; it's Turkey's choice. Let's not impose our collective views on others. I'm sure there are Kurds who don't want to live under communist rule, but that is for them to figure out. For that, they'll need their own country and a multi-party political system.

Let's imagine a different scenario with Turks being the scattered community (race/language) living in Kurdistan and other countries in the region. Wouldn't the Turks want their own country? After all, they have their own history to teach. They have their own language to celebrate. Even if they were granted equal rights (which can never happen), they'd still feel left behind. Everybody else has a state. Why not them?

As an Arab, I could easily be nationalistic about this and object to the secession of Kurdistan from Iraq. But there's no need to be. Just because the PKK are active and violent, that doesn't mean they're going to be the future of Kurdistan. To say that we'd then have to deal with a violent neighbour is just a lame excuse.

I hope we all try to empathise with the Kurds. No matter what, living as a restricted minority is not really nice.

From this I infer that you are not a religious Muslim who is against all nation states, who is working toward the Qur'anic injunction to unite all Muslims. Right?

However, I agree that if Turks have the right to have their own nation state, Kurds have that right too. But that is in idealistic situation. If kurds try to have their own state in this actual situation, they will have to start a very big war with the Turks who see that the greatest possible abomination that they can face is yet another division of their lands. It is downright evil to want Muslims to fight each other. That's why religious Kurds do not want an independent state. They do not want hositilites between the Turkish and Kurdish brothers.

Look at me. I am a native of what is today Bulgaria. Do my Bulgarian Turkish brothers demand an independent Turkish state from Bulgaria? No. In the 1980s the communist Bulgarian state forced the Turkish Muslims to change their names into Christian Bulgarian names and applied all sorts of oppression on the Turkish natives of the country. Turks were humiliated and marginalized in all spheres of Bulgarian life. Did they resort to terrorism to beat this humiliation? No, they did not. Did Turkey support Turkish separatists who want to separate from Bulgaria or join the mainland Turkey? No, our government did not. Why are the Kurds in North Iraq not following the same peaceful way? Let me tell you why: Because their problem is with a Muslim state and not with the Christian Bulgarian state like my countrymen, they are supported by western powers. Even the US has had to admit that American weapons are going to the terrorists in North Iraq. It has been proven that American and probably other western officers are regularly meeting with the terrorists in Mount Kandil. Supporting the Kurdish terrorists means supporting the western imperialistic ambitions over the lands of Islam. Even conscious religious Kurds themselves see this reality very clearly and are against the PKK and separation from Turkey. But those who have been educated by westerners or westernized, mentally bastardized teachers in their schools support the terrorists and their anti-Muslim western collaborators. Shame on them.

By the way, I am not a fan of the secular Turkish state either. Inshallah I will be working toward a cultural Islamic revolution in Turkey and in the entire world and we will found a new world. I see no way a true Muslim can have any other intention.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Ugur

From this I infer that you are not a religious Muslim who is against all nation states, who is working toward the Qur'anic injunction to unite all Muslims. Right?

Oh, interesting. So now you're questioning my beliefs based on some serious twisting of meaning. Good job.

However, I agree that if Turks have the right to have their own nation state, Kurds have that right too. But that is in idealistic situation. If kurds try to have their own state in this actual situation, they will have to start a very big war with the Turks who see that the greatest possible abomination that they can face is yet another division of their lands. It is downright evil to want Muslims to fight each other. That's why religious Kurds do not want an independent state. They do not want hositilites between the Turkish and Kurdish brothers.

I'm glad you agree. But I don't see why there should be a war at all? Why are they denied what they should rightfully have like the rest of us in the region?

Of course I don't want Muslims to fight each other, which is why I think the best thing to do is to peacefully allow for them to establish their own state. If it was up to Turkey, it wouldn't have given up all the wealthy lands. And as bad a choice as I think it was, the Arabs aligned themselves with non-Muslims to free themselves from Ottoman rule. If they had not, today's oil reserves would have probably been under the Sultan's control, who would most likely not use it to develop the areas from which the oil is pumped out.

I'm sure religious people everywhere do not want a war. Even non-religious people would agree. There's no need for a war. Just a peaceful resolution to the problem. If Turkey doesn't want to give up its Kurdish-dominated lands, then maybe it should just leave the Kurds in Iraq alone. If they are successful in establishing an independent Kurdish state in the north of Iraq, then great. Why not?

Look at me. I am a native of what is today Bulgaria. Do my Bulgarian Turkish brothers demand an independent Turkish state from Bulgaria? No. In the 1980s the communist Bulgarian state forced the Turkish Muslims to change their names into Christian Bulgarian names and applied all sorts of oppression on the Turkish natives of the country. Turks were humiliated and marginalized in all spheres of Bulgarian life. Did they resort to terrorism to beat this humiliation? No, they did not. Did Turkey support Turkish separatists who want to separate from Bulgaria or join the mainland Turkey? No, our government did not. Why are the Kurds in North Iraq not following the same peaceful way? Let me tell you why: Because their problem is with a Muslim state and not with the Christian Bulgarian state like my countrymen, they are supported by western powers. Even the US has had to admit that American weapons are going to the terrorists in North Iraq. It has been proven that American and probably other western officers are regularly meeting with the terrorists in Mount Kandil. Supporting the Kurdish terrorists means supporting the western imperialistic ambitions over the lands of Islam. Even conscious religious Kurds themselves see this reality very clearly and are against the PKK and separation from Turkey. But those who have been educated by westerners or westernized, mentally bastardized teachers in their schools support the terrorists and their anti-Muslim western collaborators. Shame on them.

You identify yourself as a Turk. They see themselves as Kurds. There's a huge difference when it comes to where one's loyalty lies.

By the way, I am not a fan of the secular Turkish state either. Inshallah I will be working toward a cultural Islamic revolution in Turkey and in the entire world and we will found a new world. I see no way a true Muslim can have any other intention.

I pray for whatever is best for the Muslim ummah.

[Ugur]

I'm glad you agree. But I don't see why there should be a war at all? Why are they denied what they should rightfully have like the rest of us in the region?

Of course I don't want Muslims to fight each other, which is why I think the best thing to do is to peacefully allow for them to establish their own state. If it was up to Turkey, it wouldn't have given up all the wealthy lands.

I'm sure religious people everywhere do not want a war. Even non-religious people would agree. There's no need for a war. Just a peaceful resolution to the problem. If Turkey doesn't want to give up its Kurdish-dominated lands, then maybe it should just leave the Kurds in Iraq alone. If they are successful in establishing an independent Kurdish state in the north of Iraq, then great. Why not?

Will America peacefully allow the Blacks or the Hispanics to have their own state if some blacks or Hispanics go to the mountains and start making terrorist attacks on both American civilians and soldiers? No, she will not. As the blacks and Hispanics have never had their state in the American land, the Kurds have never ever had their own state either. Just as America would never cede any land to separatists, neither will Turkey.

Yeah, I wish the whole world was such a peaceful and ideal place, and Americans and Turks allowed the minorities to have their own states without any bloodshed. A world in which the Spaniards peacefully allowed the Basques and the Catalans to establish their own states on Spanish soil. Such a world will never be. And telling the Turks to do what is impossible for any nation state on earth to do and allow the division of its lands peacefully is nonsense upon nonsense.

You identify yourself as a Turk. They see themselves as Kurds. There's a huge difference when it comes to where one's loyalty lies.

Did you even read the whole paragraph? I am talking about Bulgarian Turks not a segment ofTurks of Turkey? Maybe you don't even know that there is a state called Bulgaria to the northwest of Turkey which was founded upon the exile and genocide of 1 000 000 Turkish Muslims and which oppressed the remaining native Turks especially under the communist regime of the 1980s? Now learn this and re-read the paragraph.

I pray for whatever is best for the Muslim ummah.

What is best for every Muslim individual is to work toward the establishment of Muslim unity and the shariah in all Islamic lands as doing otherwise is against the Qur'an of Allah. Saying stupid things like that the Turkish nation state, and not for example the Spanish, should allow separatists to grab Turkish land to found on it a hostile America-backed state will only cause a lot of Muslim blood to be shed. This will help the godless imperialists to divide the Muslim lands even further. Every religious Muslim is obligated by Islamic law, the Qur'an and the Sunnah to prevent war between Muslims from happening and not to cause it to happen and not to aid the imperialists who will benefit from wars between Muslims.

All in all, the only possible Islamic solution for Muslim Kurds in Turkey is to have a peaceful dialogue with their religious Turkish brothers and to work hand in hand with them for better conditions for Kurds in Turkey and for the triumph of the religion of Allah eventually.

But you may never understand this as the mentality that you have been given by your western or native but mentally bastardized teachers is obvious. If you keep behaving like this, you will have yourt own small share of responsibility in the presence of Allah for contributing to unnecessary war and bloodshed between Muslims.

We have the chance to work for the peaceful settlement of the disputes among our Muslim brothers in this world. But unfortunately Muslims like you choose to serve the designs of the infidel imperialists who want to divide us even more. Such a pity, such a pity for you.

Anyway, if not in this world, we will settle our disputes before Our Lord in the judgment Day.

Truly thou wilt die (one day), and truly they (too) will die (one day).

In the end will ye (all), on the Day of Judgment, settle your disputes in the presence of your Lord. [Qur'an - 39:30,31]

I quite have the peace of mind that I am ready for the disputes on that day inshallah because I am doing my best to encourage the truth among people, among Muslims, Turks and Kurds.

[Ugur]

You identify yourself as a Turk. They see themselves as Kurds. There's a huge difference when it comes to where one's loyalty lies.

Ah maybe you read my paragraph about the comparison between Bulgarian Turks and Turkish Kurds and you based this paragraph upon that knowledge. Then you have been beaten by your own argument.

Yes, the native Turks in Bulgaria identified themselves as Turks but they did not demand to establish a Turkish state on Bulgarian soil. Instead, they either chose to put up with all the humiliation and oppression of the Chistian Bulgarians just because of their faith in Islam and their identity as Turks and remained as peaceful citizens of Bulgaria. Or they chose to leave Bulgaria and immigrate to Turkey. From a moral point of view, the Kurds have to do the same. Luckily for them, Turks are Muslim like them and they are not humiliated by Turks (except by some bigots that exist in every society, among the Kurds as well as the Turks) as Christians humiliated Turks in Bulgaria. From a moral viewpoint, they should do as we did. Either stay in Turkey as peaceful citizens of Turkey, demanding their rights peacefully and without terrorism, or move to the Kurdish Autonomous region of North Iraq. As simple as this. Just as we Turks maintain peaceful relations with our Bulgarian neighbors, the Kurds there will also be morally obligated to maintain peaceful relations with us. Fortunately many Kurds see this, but there is the rest like you who cannot think reasonably, Islamically, wisely.

[Variable]

The way I figure it, if the US doesn't want to let Turkey take out Kurdish terrorists, they should be happy settling for Pakistan ineffectively dealing with Taliban folks on their side of the border.

[MossadConspiracy]

Or at the very least America could extend to the Kurds the same courtesy that Iran gives to Hizbullah and give the Pesh Mergas some rockets and launch platforms so they can hit Turkey with non-stop bombardment for as long as turkish troops and aircraft are in Iraq

[Aryan_]

Kurds in Turkey are only one group of Kurds rebelling. There are also Kurds in Iraq, Syria and to a lesser extent Iran that have struggled for independence. Turkey's Kurds are only more prevalent because it is the least authoritarian and most connected to the west. Though things have changed in Iraq since the first GW and after Saddam.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Or at the very least America could extend to the Kurds the same courtesy that Iran gives to Hizbullah and give the Pesh Mergas some rockets and launch platforms so they can hit Turkey with non-stop bombardment for as long as turkish troops and aircraft are in Iraq

That's going to be a little tricky as Turkey is a US ally, not a country the Americans are saying should be destroyed.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Variable

That's going to be a little tricky as Turkey is a US ally, not a country the Americans are saying should be destroyed.

Yes but Iraq is also a US ally, and their military is supposedly being constructed by Uncle Sam from the ground up. So that should include Iraq's artillery and air defense corps. America can help the Kurds protect themselves legitimately, without destroying the alliance with Turkey, we just dont because Turkey is a bigger, wealthier, and more powerful and important ally. So in the end, Turkey burning Kurdish villages in a few months will mean about as much as the Armenian villages that they burned 90 years ago

[GOTFIVEONIT]

in my opinion, while so many people are advocating a seperate kurdish state, there is no need for a two-nation theory in turkey. i think its a very stupid idea. everyone in turkey is muslim and thats what matters the most, not b.s. ethnic nationalistic nonsense. i think the ruling AK party has done a very superb job in uniteing all muslims in Turkey behind them and that's what is needed. Otherwise, if pakis writing here are demanding a seperate kurdish state, then pakistan too should breakup, n.w.f.p. goes to afghanistan, bulachistan becomes independent, and an independent state for the muhajirs of karachi and hyderabad,sindh. After all are the bulachi's not fighting the pak government right for the right to independence?

[MossadConspiracy]

whatever happens in Pakistan isnt relevant to this, but the Kurds have shown very clearly that their goal as a people is independence, and since they are a separate nation with their own native lands then they should have it.

ws

[Ugur]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

whatever happens in Pakistan isnt relevant to this, but the Kurds have shown very clearly that their goal as a people is independence, and since they are a separate nation with their own native lands then they should have it.

ws

Yeah unwanted facts are irrelevant to you. "Long live American imperialism and division of the Muslim world!" If you are really a Muslim Egyptian in origin, you are a very sad case of western cultural imperialism. You and other imperialists and other enemies of the Tradition of the Global Islamic Movement started by the Prophet (peace be unto him) himself will eventually lose.

[MossadConspiracy]

Western culture produced all the anti-psychotics that allow so many millions of mentally ill people to live functional lives. So thats one aspect of it that we both support. Maybe not the imperialism and killing so much, but the medications for sure

ws