[Timbit]

Did you completely miss the part where I said that when I asked you point-blank if there's more value placed on a woman's chastity, you said yes, and used slandering women being a major sin as a justification for it?

And the reason you gave for women's modesty being more emphasized by Islamic speakers and writers is that there's more value placed on their chastity.

[zakk]

Salaams


Please refrain from personal attacks. Any further insulting posts will be edited or simply deleted. Warnings may be issued.

Please use effective arguments instead of intimidation tactics like insults and slander. Take the high road, people.

*This post is nonnegotiable*

Thanks.

[jinnzaman]

The one of seven under the shade.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Did you completely miss the part where I said that when I asked you point-blank if there's more value placed on a woman's chastity, you said yes, and used slandering women being a major sin as a justification for it?

You seem to have extreme difficulty in comprehending what I said in the following sentence:

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

In Islam, there is greater value placed on the chaste behavior of women than on men -a s seen from the fact that its a major sin to accuse a Muslim woman of unchastity, but it is not the same for a man.

There is greater value placed on her behavior than it is on men. If a woman and a man were spotted coming out of room together, and I accused her of fornication or adultery, I just committed a major crime by making that accusation and impugning her character.

If however she left the scene without me saying anything, and thereafter I accused the man of fornication or adultery, then that accusation is not a major crime.

Ergo, Islam has placed greater value on protecting her behavior as seen by others, because that is what that kabeerah relates to. It has nothing to do with the acts [fornication or adultery] themselves, but has everything to do with the mere accusation or implication of the same.

Now, what is SO hard to understand about that?

[zakk]

I think the original poster had an issue with emphasis placed on telling women how to behave versus telling men how to behave.

The original issue had nothing to do with what Muslims in general are told about slandering a woman.

A woman cannot control whether an accusation will be made against her; the issue is about emphasizing women controlling their behavior but not emphasizing men controlling their behavior.

That being said, naturally both men and women must control their own behavior and are each going to be held accountable for any lack of chastity... so (the OP is wondering) why the emphasis on women more in speeches and books and men not as much.

I don't think that the emphasis on the public image of a woman being sacred is necessarily an argument to not encourage men to behave properly as well.

Also, I don't really care that there isn't a lot of admonition oriented literature for men... we all have to practice our islam as perfectly as possible, whether a scholar lectures us on it or not.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

You seem to have extreme difficulty in comprehending what I said in the following sentence:

There is greater value placed on her behavior than it is on men. If a woman and a man were spotted coming out of room together, and I accused her of fornication or adultery, I just committed a major crime by making that accusation and impugning her character.

If however she left the scene without me saying anything, and thereafter I accused the man of fornication or adultery, then that accusation is not a major crime.

Ergo, Islam has placed greater value on protecting her behavior as seen by others, because that is what that kabeerah relates to. It has nothing to do with the acts [fornication or adultery] themselves, but has everything to do with the mere accusation or implication of the same.

Now, what is SO hard to understand about that?

But then you said this

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

a) The fact is God has told both men and women to keep themselves chaste. The command on keeping oneself chaste is the same for both. But when it comes to protecting the personal image of one's chastity, clearly its more important for people to understand that there are serious consequences for impugning the chastity of women, as opposed to men.

[ChotooMotoo]

Then there is what Jinnzaman is refering to

The Prophet said:

There are seven whom Allaah will shade in His Shade on the Day when there is no shade except His Shade: a just ruler; a youth who grew up in the worship of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic; a man whose heart is attached to the mosques; two men who love each other for Allaah's sake, meeting for that and parting upon that; a man who is called by a woman of beauty and position [for illegal intercourse], but be says: 'I fear Allaah', a man who gives in charity and hides it, such that his left hand does not know what his right hand gives in charity; and a man who remembered Allaah in private and so his eyes shed tears.' Narrated by Abu Hurairah & collected in Saheeh al-Bukhari (english trans.) vol.1, p.356, no.629 & Saheeh Muslim (english trans.) vol.2, p.493, no.2248

In this beautiful Hadeeth, the Prophet spoke about small acts of worship which result in such a huge reward: shade on the Day when there will be no shade except His Shade [1]. This may not seem like much at first but then reflect upon the following Hadeeth: 'On the Day of Resurrection, the sun would draw so close to the people that there would be left a distance of only one mile. The people will be submerged in perspiration according to their deeds, some up to their ankles, some up to their knees, some up to the waist and some would have the bridle of perspiration and, while saying this, the Messenger of Allaah put his hand towards his mouth.' Narrated by al Miqdaad ibn Aswad & collected in Saheeh Muslim (eng. trans) vol.4, p.1487-8, no. 6852}.

And in another Hadeeth, some will be submerged in sweat 'seventy arm-lengths in the earth.' Narrated by Abu Hurairah and collected in Saheeh al-Bukhari (eng. trans.) vol.8, p.353, no.539) and Muslim (eng. trans.) vol.4, p.l487, no.6851

Which is explained

5. 'A man who is called by a woman of beauty and position but he says: 'I fear Allaah...'

This world is full of temptations which lead to burning in the Fire and amongst them is that which comes from women. Many a man has led his soul into destruction on account of the lure of a woman which is why the Prophet warned his Ummah specifically about this. He said, 'The world is sweet and green and verily Allaah is going to install you as successors upon it in order to see how you act. So avoid the allurement of women: verily the first trial for the Children of Israa'eel was caused by women.' Narrated by Aboo Sa'eed al-Khudree & collected in Saheeh Muslim (eng. trans.) vol.4, p.1432, no.6606

The most important provision which we need to protect ourselves from this and all other temptations in life is the fear (khawf) of Allaah. This fact is alluded to in the following Qur'aanic Aayah: 'And as for him who feared standing before his Lord and restrained himself from impure evil desires, verily Paradise will be his abode.' [Soorah an- Naazi'aat (79):40 1].

That doesn't seem to say that a woman's chastity is more important than a mans. Rather it seems to point out that men are weaker than women when it comes to controlling their sexual urges, and therefore have to do MORE than women to keep themselves chaste. Women are admonished to cover as a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. Covering, standing in the back durring congregational prayers, these things aren't meant to keep women, but men chaste.

Fact of the matter is, men and women are commanded equally to gaurd their chastity. Therefore this whole argument that Islam emphasises the chastity of women more than men is silly. Culture pushes one over the other, not Islam.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by zakk

I think the original poster had an issue with emphasis placed on telling women how to behave versus telling men how to behave.

The original issue had nothing to do with what Muslims in general are told about slandering a woman.

A woman cannot control whether an accusation will be made against her; the issue is about emphasizing women controlling their behavior but not emphasizing men controlling their behavior.

That being said, naturally both men and women must control their own behavior and are each going to be held accountable for any lack of chastity... so (the OP is wondering) why the emphasis on women more in speeches and books and men not as much.

I don't think that the emphasis on the public image of a woman being sacred is necessarily an argument to not encourage men to behave properly as well.

Also, I don't really care that there isn't a lot of admonition oriented literature for men... we all have to practice our islam as perfectly as possible, whether a scholar lectures us on it or not.

zakk:

Lets say you have Adam and Angela, both Muslims.

Adam wears partyboy / clubbin' clothes, hits on all the girls, gives them rides in his car, takes them out shopping or eating, calls them up on the phone, is mackin' on them via MSN or AIM or PMs, etc etc. And everyone knows this, and people start saying he's a playa and they say he's probably getting some, too.

Angela wears tight clothes too, is pretty loose around boys, talks with a lot of them, hangs around one or two boys in particular, gets in their car, etc etc. And now people think she's probably sleeping around with one of them.

But for the sake of argument, lets say in reality neither of them are committing fornication.

The fact still remains that anyone who slanders Angela's character is committing a major sin, but if they say the same about Adam, they are not committing such a sin. But these people would have never said anything about her if she had been more modest in her behavior, clothing, and speech. So is she complicit in their crime? Yes.

Ergo, I was saying that this is one reason why some scholars and speakers admonish women moreso than men.

And just for the record, I disagree with the OP - I think men and women get plenty of admonition from all around. Tairra doesn't think so.

And as I already said, men do not believe that they somehow have more leeway in their antics and behavior just because accusing them of such behavior is not as big a crime. I don't know a single guy who thinks like that. All of the Muslim playas I know, who do admittedly sleep around, they all feel bad about it, many of them come to the masjid and cry in sujoud. NONE OF THEM thinks they can get away with it, or that its somehow not so big of a deal just because they're men.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

But then you said this

.... so what?

I merely recognized that for the record, God has placed equal emphasis on the command to both genders to keep their BEHAVIOR clean.

That is different from the emphasis he has placed on ACCUSATIONS of illicit conduct when it comes to men and women. It is a greater crime to impugn or defame the character of a Muslim woman.

[zakk]

well Ibn, the OP did not specify that she was speaking simply of chastity related behavior admonishments.

Also, I see what you're saying, but I think the main point is that the sinfulness of the behacior (equal for both) and the sinfulness of the accusation are two spearate issues.

Look at my typos. I need to sleep.

Anyway, it's more than chastity, I think that there are a lot of things on how to be a good wife, how to dress, etc.... but I haven't researched the other side. Also, I think it would be more helpful to have a greater amount of information on what to do. But I understand how it can be frustrating if it plays out in real life that as a woman you're held accountable for minor things but your brother gets away with actual major sins.

I don;t think the literature is the problem, though... I think it's cultural mores about having different (and unislamic) standards for males and females. Which I don't think the ulema are advocating even by having an uneven amount of literature on the subjects.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

.... so what?

I merely recognized that for the record, God has placed equal emphasis on the command to both genders to keep their BEHAVIOR clean.

That is different from the emphasis he has placed on ACCUSATIONS of illicit conduct when it comes to men and women. It is a greater crime to impugn or defame the character of a Muslim woman.

You've lost it. Go to bed. Keeping chaste is a behavior.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

You've lost it. Go to bed.

And you never had it. Hit the sack.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

And you never had it. Hit the sack.

Read my edit, and go back and read the quoted post which you are supposedly debunking.

Staying chaste is a behavior.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

That doesn't seem to say that a woman's chastity is more important than a mans. Rather it seems to point out that men are weaker than women when it comes to controlling their sexual urges, and therefore have to do MORE than women to keep themselves chaste. Women are admonished to cover a