[farah]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Man, PLEASE help me out here.

What did Nestle lie about in their advertising, and how did those lies contribute to the deaths of those babies, if at all?

Corporate Crime and Violence

[TrentReznor858]

Originally Posted by farah

Corporate Crime and Violence

pwnage.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by farah

Corporate Crime and Violence

Thank you.

Although, that article is 20 years old, and in sum, all it mentions is how Nestle was in willful dereliction of its ethical responsibility to market its products responsibly. Not about how Nestle was / could be held liable for the deaths of the babies.

[Blue_Phoenix]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Thank you.

Although, that article is 20 years old, and in sum, all it mentions is how Nestle was in willful dereliction of its ethical responsibility to market its products responsibly. Not about how Nestle was / could be held liable for the deaths of the babies.

Willful dereliction of ethical responsibility is basically killing in the abstract. Kind of like George W. Bush killing all those Iraqis. He's responsible, but he never went over there himself with an assault rifle and started shooting everything in sight.

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by farah

Corporate Crime and Violence

Okay, maybe they do kill babies but they do make great chocolates. Don't be so negative.

[farah]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Okay, maybe they do kill babies but they do make great chocolates. Don't be so negative.

yes, amazing chocolate... from babies.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by farah

yes, amazing chocolate... from babies.

that's the best kind.

[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Thank you.

Although, that article is 20 years old, and in sum, all it mentions is how Nestle was in willful dereliction of its ethical responsibility to market its products responsibly. Not about how Nestle was / could be held liable for the deaths of the babies.

you answered your own question there. Are you debating just to string out discussion or to actually learn something?

strange

[MuslimZ]

I came here for Willy Wonka. All I get is talk about water. Shame on all of you.
Alligator eats the chocolate and excrements the water.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Bluestar

you answered your own question there. Are you debating just to string out discussion or to actually learn something?

strange

You made a claim: "Nestle kill babies ... 15 babies died a year because of this and they were not punished at all."

I asked you to substantiate that claim.

You did not.

I confirmed that you did not answer my question - i.e. you did not substantiate your claim.

That's not too hard to understand now, is it?


ah, simplicity

[farah]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

You made a claim: "Nestle kill babies ... 15 babies died a year because of this and they were not punished at all."

I asked you to substantiate that claim.

You did not.

I confirmed that you did not answer my question - i.e. you did not substantiate your claim.

That's not too hard to understand now, is it?


ah, simplicity

- Nestle ignores its responsibility to properly advertise its formula milk in developing countries, as established by the WHO in the International Code of Marketing of Breast-milk Substitutes in 1981.
- Because of Nestle's practices in advertising its formula milk, babies in developing countries die every year. still (from 2004: http://www.ibfan.org/english/pdfs/btr04/btr04nestle.pdf . and claims are still being made).

you're making a difference between legality and ethics. as the US didn't accept the WHO's Code, you can't really discredit Nestle based on legality. but failing to uphold your duties as a company (and being well aware that your neglect is the reason there are infants dying in underdeveloped nations) is one hell of a breach of morality.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Farah stop confusing me please .... my tummy is too full for me to think straight. Am I talking to you ... or Bluestar?

Bluestar claimed Nestle knew the poor mothers would be using contaminated water to make the drinks, and I asked him to prove just that. IN the corporate world, there are key areas of unethical practices, and outright illegal practices.

Unethical practices take places all over the world, day in day out. Including massive. breaches. of. ethics.

I don't agree with nor do I support those breaches or their rationale, but at the end of the day, you claims don't hold any water if those unethical behavior were still within the pale of legal behavior.

I just don't like it when people go around talking crap about companies just because they disagree with some of their practices, or when those people make unsubstantiated claims based on hype and emotions, and I particularly don't like it when Muslims do that. I hold every Muslim, including myself to a higher standard. So if you;re going to say something, back it up or else you back up a few steps.

Simple.

[farah]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Farah stop confusing me please .... my tummy is too full for me to think straight. Am I talking to you ... or Bluestar?

Bluestar claimed Nestle knew the poor mothers would be using contaminated water to make the drinks, and I asked him to prove just that. IN the corporate world, there are key areas of unethical practices, and outright illegal practices.

Unethical practices take places all over the world, day in day out. Including massive. breaches. of. ethics.

I don't agree with nor do I support those breaches or their rationale, but at the end of the day, you claims don't hold any water if those unethical behavior were still within the pale of legal behavior.

I just don't like it when people go around talking crap about companies just because they disagree with some of their practices, or when those people make unsubstantiated claims based on hype and emotions, and I particularly don't like it when Muslims do that. I hold every Muslim, including myself to a higher standard. So if you;re going to say something, back it up or else you back up a few steps.

Simple.

1. good to know that "everyone does it" is enough rationale to overlook massive. breaches. of. ethics.

2. again, you're arguing legal responsibility versus ethical responsibility. if you choose to support a company who is within their legal rights but is clearly involved in unethical conduct, so be it. however, as muslims, i would argue that we ARE holding ourselves to a higher standard by structuring our lives not just based on the laws, but on morality and ethics, as taught to us by Islam. while i'm not claiming that it's fardh to do so, i'd consider it honorable and spiritually mature to at least partially base your buying habits on a company's level of ethical responsibility, especially in instances where clear evidence of ethical wrongdoing is presented before you.

3. the issue with the water: while the drinking water may be contaminated, the heart of the discussion lies in the formula vs breast milk debate. people from the village or town may be able to handle water from, say, a certain well because through the years they've developed an immunity to any pathogens that may be present in it. a bad case would result in mild diarrhea that would clear itself up shortly. newborns, however, don't have this immunity and have a depressed immune system to begin with. that's one of the reasons breast feeding is so important -- key antibodies are passed from mother to child through breast milk. breast feeding for the first few months of birth also allows a baby's immune system to build up and become less susceptible to infection. this is why it's so important that mothers, especially in underdeveloped countries, breast feed their children for the first few months after birth. [input all the info about nestle's breach of the WHO's international code for formula milk advertising, etc]

[IbnMardhiyah]

thats all fine and cool.

If you had simply come to me and said, "Please don't support Nestle's infant milk products because they're involved in such unethical practices and campaigns" - I would have said okay cool [I was already aware of the previous ruckus over their milk formula]

But since someone said Nestle kills babies and they should be held responsible, all I wanted was evidence of that.