[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by Salika

I think what scholars are usually talking about and what the questioner is often referring to are nose jobs, lip jobs, breast enhancements, calf enhancements and the like.

I was going to give an argument for why the line between cosmetic and reconstructive procedures blurs even with procedures like breast augmentation, but it would have been too explicit for here. Suffice it to say, the patient's view of what is disfiguring has to be taken into account. And I have see doctors turn away patients who they felt either didn't need the surgery they wanted or would have been harmed by it. Happens more often than people think.

[shadha]

Ibn: In addition to what Salika said, the other reason why black [and black only] is forbidden is because its deceptive. You're giving others the appearance that you're younger than you really are because you're implying that your hair is still naturally black.
Which leads to the obvious question: Is cosmetic surgery halal? I always thought I'd give that option to my [future] wife if and when she wanted it after like two decades of marriage and having a busload of children.

I read Salika's explanation, which I don't particularly agree with. But in terms of your post--- this is why I said that I figured it to apply to those who are visually old looking. How is it deceptive if a young person, who is also visually young as well as biologically, dyes his hair black to cover a couple grays? That doesn't make any sense eh.

No matter. I have no problem agreeing to disagree.


shadha-

[shadha]

Ibn: What if, after five kids, the woman just wants to remove excess flab ans bring her figure back to or closer, to what she was when they first got married.
Is that out of bounds, too?

I plan to. I consider it, Reconstructive Surgery.


shadha-

[zakk]

I'm 31. I don't feel particularly old.

[SoSoHalalish]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

I was going to give an argument for why the line between cosmetic and reconstructive procedures blurs even with procedures like breast augmentation, but it would have been too explicit for here. Suffice it to say, the patient's view of what is disfiguring has to be taken into account. And I have see doctors turn away patients who they felt either didn't need the surgery they wanted or would have been harmed by it. Happens more often than people think.

Bruinab,
I really enjoyed your input on this topic of plastic surgery, a very interesting and insightful perspective.

I agree about the psychological factor.

I believe most Islamic scholars will try and divide plastic surgery into two categories- those which are only for beautification, and the other for more "necessary" alterations, like fixing a hare lip, or grafting skin.

But I don't think its that simple. I know some people cite the hadith about women putting spaces between their teeth as a sign of beauty, and how this is wrong because you're altering what Allah created. So then, are braces wrong?

[Salika]

Originally Posted by SoSoHalalish

Bruinab,
I really enjoyed your input on this topic of plastic surgery, a very interesting and insightful perspective. "Altering Allah's creation" is not the only factor that scholars are considering.

I agree about the psychological factor.

I believe most Islamic scholars will try and divide plastic surgery into two categories- those which are only for beautification, and the other for more "necessary" alterations, like fixing a hare lip, or grafting skin.

But I don't think its that simple. I know some people cite the hadith about women putting spaces between their teeth as a sign of beauty, and how this is wrong because you're altering what Allah created. So then, are braces wrong?

No.. braces is fixing a defect. And often times it's not even merely cosmetic.

The problem I have with the psychological argument is that it's only going to blur the line further. I mean this might sound harsh, but as I said before, we really need to get over our own vanity and obsession with perfection sometimes.

In law, we use "public policy" because if you apply a rule to everyone, the effect on society overall is going to be detrimental. Nitpicking at your body and not learning to accept you for who you are is frankly, vain. Why should the shari'a (or any law for that matter) condone such a mindset? Not only that, but it makes people ungrateful for what they do have because all they want to do is obsess over their alleged deficiencies. And the more people you have taking the easy way out, the more badly those who did not opt for that route have to struggle and feel more imperfect. It becomes a cycle.

I'll use the example of calf augments for men (and you can make the analogy for women). If a man is really feeling just sooooo depressed about his calves and that's just his genetic predisposition no matter what he does, is he going to go under the knife if there's no health reason? I mean having small calves or "chicken legs" doesn't exactly make you a freak show.

Yes, I'm sure there are real psychological problems, but is going under the knife really the solution? I think the problem there is more pyschological and the cosmetic surgeries are just a band-aid of the underlying problems-- namely the vanity disease in our society an the individual's inablity to realize his/her own self-worth. When Islam has a huge element of tawakkul and unwordliness, why should this be accepted?

We don't need to look farther than Hollywood to see the example. Those people have access to the best nutrionists, personal trainers, and plastic surgeons and how happy are they?

I have several gripes about myself so it's not like I'm speaking off of some pedestal. In fact, I had to put up a lot with psychological problems when I was a kid as a result of my being overweight and having acne (amongst other things, wasn't particularly popular). I was, very often, the target of my classmates' taunts and jibes. But I worked on myself, physically and psychologically. Now alhamdulillah, even though I have my bad days (who doesn't?) I know I have a lot going for me. Sometimes we just need to aspire to the best we can, take control of our own lives, accept ourselves as we are, and count our blessings.

[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by Salika

In fact, I had to put up a lot with psychological problems when I was a kid as a result of my being overweight and having acne (amongst other things, wasn't particularly popular). I was, very often, the target of my classmates' taunts and jibes. But I worked on myself, physically and psychologically.

I'm just going to ask this question. Your perceived deficits were ones that you could fix through lifestyle changes and numerous treatments that have been discussed on this forum. How is cosmetic surgery that much more vain than, say, laser skin resurfacing or permanent hair removal? Most cosmetic surgery patients I have met have gone through similar experiences, they just couldn't diet away their issues; and because of that, their emotional "work" sometimes becomes delayed too.

[shadha]

Salika: No.. braces is fixing a defect. And often times it's not even merely cosmetic.

A defect according to whom? I think piano teeth are more cosmetic than a defect, unless the person is experiencing physical pain. I also recall reading that in some cultures the front gap between the teeth is a sign of beauty- so how can it be accepted as a defect? I had braces, I have no problem saying I had them put on for solely cosmetic purposes since I had no oral pains etc. I wouldn't call imperfect teeth defected because some accept them and flaunt them- a couple models have gapped teeth. Many of the celebrities have piano bottom teeth. How are they defected? Is that also saying that God gave you defective teeth while you experience no pain from them?

I'm not trying to harass you over this or anything- I just think culturally you may have come to accept teeth which aren't perfectly straight as defective since braces have become such a common day procedure.

There are many things to take into account for why people want cosmetic surgery. I really don't think it's a clear clean cut for every case.


shadha-

[Salika]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

I'm just going to ask this question. Your perceived deficits were ones that you could fix through lifestyle changes and numerous treatments that have been discussed on this forum. How is cosmetic surgery that much more vain than, say, laser skin resurfacing or permanent hair removal? Most cosmetic surgery patients I have met have gone through similar experiences, they just couldn't diet away their issues; and because of that, their emotional "work" sometimes becomes delayed too.

I haven't had "numerous" treatments? The only thing I've done is laser hair removal. We remove hair everyday. I've never had laser skin resurfacing or any other cosmetic surgery, nor do I plan on it. And even if someone has skin resurfacing, they probably had some major scarring to begin with. Again, that's fixing, not enhancing.

My weight story had more to do with getting across the point of the psychological aspects but I did not mean weight to be the main "cosmetic" issue, especially since weight has a lot of physical health ramifications as well. And even so, there are some perceived deficits that I still can't fix (like my nose). I would definitely concede though weight is probably where the line is the blurriest. And please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we can't find innovative ways to look nice. I'm not at all saying that looking good or spending time, effort, and money on these things is wrong or bad. The question is how extreme a person should go for a what the "deficiency" is. The extremities a person will go (generally speaking), particularly over something that is not that big, to is a good indicator of their mindset.

I just think when plastics, silocons, and all this other fakeness gets involved, a line should be drawn. In terms of vanity, we all care about our looks and it's certainly a valid concern, but when it starts to come and obession, when a person is not happy unless they are perfect (which no one will ever be, therefore said person will never be happy), then it's a real problem. At some point the person will have to accept who they are. No, this does not mean that the 5'4 300 lb woman has to. But if a person who isn't "ideal" (but certainly normal, nobody sees anything wrong with them), do they need to go under the knife? Like when girl who is 5'5 and 130 pounds complains about being overweight.

[sally]

we all know Bruinrabs in it for the money!

[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by Salika

I haven't had "numerous" treatments? The only thing I've done is laser hair removal. We remove hair everyday. I've never had laser skin resurfacing or any other cosmetic surgery, nor do I plan on it. And even if someone has skin resurfacing, they probably had some major scarring to begin with. Again, that's fixing, not enhancing.

Sorry for conflating the issue. I was thinking of all the medical treatments that have been mentioned for various problems.

My weight story had more to do with getting across the point of the psychological aspects but I did not mean weight to be the main "cosmetic" issue, especially since weight has a lot of physical health ramifications as well. And even so, there are some perceived deficits that I still can't fix (like my nose). I would definitely concede though weight is probably where the line is the blurriest. And please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we can't find innovative ways to look nice. I'm not at all saying that looking good or spending time, effort, and money on these things is wrong or bad. The question is how extreme a person should go for a what the "deficiency" is. The extremities a person will go (generally speaking), particularly over something that is not that big, to is a good indicator of their mindset.

Some people might consider super-strict diets or workout plans to be extreme.

I just think when plastics, silocons, and all this other fakeness gets involved, a line should be drawn. In terms of vanity, we all care about our looks and it's certainly a valid concern, but when it starts to come and obession, when a person is not happy unless they are perfect (which no one will ever be, therefore said person will never be happy), then it's a real problem. At some point the person will have to accept who they are. No, this does not mean that the 5'4 300 lb woman has to. But if a person who isn't "ideal" (but certainly normal, nobody sees anything wrong with them), do they need to go under the knife? Like when girl who is 5'5 and 130 pounds complains about being overweight.

Sigh. It's just not that simple. If it was, I'd still be planning to have a purely reconstructive practice.

Originally Posted by sally

we all know Bruinrabs in it for the money!

[Budmano786]

Bruinrab...it seems like you may not want to, but you can you elaborate on what your position is on non-reconstructive procedures? For example, nose jobs, breast augmentation, etc...procedures that are done purely out of dislike of their own anatomy that is already "within normal limits" and functional to begin with.

As far as braces go, I'm trying to solidify my position on it. There are definitely patients who present to the orthodontist who want their teeth fine-tuned and perfected. You can make an argument saying that severely crooked teeth are unnatural and therefore you are fixing something that was wrong to begin with...but then the question comes, its very rare to have perfectly aligned teeth...so how crooked is crooked enough to justify braces? I would agree that several patients that present to the orthodontist have perfectly functional and "esthetically" pleasing smiles (although this is very subjective)...but they want that last little bit of alignment to perfect it. So would this be considered cosmetic and unnecessary?

You can take it a step further...patients come in who have deep overbites where their upper teeth stick out further than their bottom teeth...and some patietns who have underbites where their lower teeth are outside their top teeth. These are often due to skeletal discrepancies where the upper and lower jaw sizes are not proportional. The thing is...its often familial so their parents will come in looking like that. Their bite is "off" according to what the defined orthodontic treatment goals are...but reality is, their bite won't kill them. It could improve their life, but definitely won't kill them. So is it wrong for an orthodontist to correct this problem as well?

This is a tough subject.

[displaced]

Originally Posted by Budmano786

Bruinrab...it seems like you may not want to, but you can you elaborate on what your position is on non-reconstructive procedures? For example, nose jobs, breast augmentation, etc...procedures that are done purely out of dislike of their own anatomy that is already "within normal limits" and functional to begin with.

As far as braces go, I'm trying to solidify my position on it. There are definitely patients who present to the orthodontist who want their teeth fine-tuned and perfected. You can make an argument saying that severely crooked teeth are unnatural and therefore you are fixing something that was wrong to begin with...but then the question comes, its very rare to have perfectly aligned teeth...so how crooked is crooked enough to justify braces? I would agree that several patients that present to the orthodontist have perfectly functional and "esthetically" pleasing smiles (although this is very subjective)...but they want that last little bit of alignment to perfect it. So would this be considered cosmetic and unnecessary?

You can take it a step further...patients come in who have deep overbites where their upper teeth stick out further than their bottom teeth...and some patietns who have underbites where their lower teeth are outside their top teeth. These are often due to skeletal discrepancies where the upper and lower jaw sizes are not proportional. The thing is...its often familial so their parents will come in looking like that. Their bite is "off" according to what the defined orthodontic treatment goals are...but reality is, their bite won't kill them. It could improve their life, but definitely won't kill them. So is it wrong for an orthodontist to correct this problem as well?

This is a tough subject.

I don't think it's a tough question at all.

if you signed up for a job, you do what people want provided it's not harmful to them.

this is like pharmacists who won't dispense birthcontrol or the morning after pill. it's not their call. they chose the job of dispensing medication and they need to do just that without dragging their beliefs into it.