[MossadConspiracy]

The problem in these matters is that scholars are supposed to make a judgment about a topic that they dont understand

For example, plastic surgeons perform hundreds of different procedures (if not thousands), and most muftis around the world have no training in surgery, no understanding of the field, have never been in an OR, have never opened up a medical textbook or journal, etc. When somebody asks "is procedure x halal", does the mufti go and consult with a plastic surgeon about the procedure? I've never seen a citation from a specialist in a different field listed in a fatwa (that doesnt mean there arent any muftis out there who do this, i just havent seen any). I dont think they are qualified to determine that this procedure is considered by God to be disfigurement or adornment, and that one is considered by God to be therapeutic, and this other one is neutral, etc

how can this be reconciled? We need people to determine if things are right or wrong, but in very technical areas its difficult to accept their decisions as informed

ws

[Ameerah]

I only feel old when a close friend gets married or has a kid. But then I look at where I'm heading and what they're doing/where they're heading. I definitely prefer the path I've chosen, alhamdulillah.

That being said, I'm not actually that old.

Hush Aida, Hajisaab and Peaceful.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

The problem in these matters is that scholars are supposed to make a judgment about a topic that they dont understand

For example, plastic surgeons perform hundreds of different procedures (if not thousands), and most muftis around the world have no training in surgery, no understanding of the field, have never been in an OR, have never opened up a medical textbook or journal, etc. When somebody asks "is procedure x halal", does the mufti go and consult with a plastic surgeon about the procedure? I've never seen a citation from a specialist in a different field listed in a fatwa (that doesnt mean there arent any muftis out there who do this, i just havent seen any). I dont think they are qualified to determine that this procedure is considered by God to be disfigurement or adornment, and that one is considered by God to be therapeutic, and this other one is neutral, etc

how can this be reconciled? We need people to determine if things are right or wrong, but in very technical areas its difficult to accept their decisions as informed

ws

I think it's pretty simple. If the intention is to alter some aspect of your face/body purely for cosmetic purposes, that would be haram. Doesn't matter how you're doing it. If someone winds up unnaturally disfigured to the point where they appear exceptional (ie burn victims or people with three ears or something like that) then that would be an exception.

Having said that, I don't think removing excess flab through surgery would be haram, since you can do that just by exercising anyway. That's just an easier path.

Allahu alim though

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

I think it's pretty simple. If the intention is to alter some aspect of your face/body purely for cosmetic purposes, that would be haram. Doesn't matter how you're doing it. If someone winds up unnaturally disfigured to the point where they appear exceptional (ie burn victims or people with three ears or something like that) then that would be an exception.

Having said that, I don't think removing excess flab through surgery would be haram, since you can do that just by exercising anyway. That's just an easier path.

Allahu alim though

Its not that simple at all. Theres much more overlap between cosmetic and therapeutic surgeries than you're describing. And already, from your comment and the hadiths that were brought up, theres a subjective allowance for cosmetic surgery

allahu alam in all things

ws

[ShotgunMessiah]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

I think it's pretty simple. If the intention is to alter some aspect of your face/body purely for cosmetic purposes, that would be haram. Doesn't matter how you're doing it. If someone winds up unnaturally disfigured to the point where they appear exceptional (ie burn victims or people with three ears or something like that) then that would be an exception.

Having said that, I don't think removing excess flab through surgery would be haram, since you can do that just by exercising anyway. That's just an easier path.

Allahu alim though

Aren't all three of your examples purely for cosmetic purposes? Possibly with the exception of the excess flab, since you could say that's for health purposes instead of cosmetic, although getting it sucked out is certainly not the most healthy way of getting it done.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

Its not that simple at all. Theres much more overlap between cosmetic and therapeutic surgeries than you're describing.

It'd depend on the intention, I suppose. Some cases are probably more clear-cut than others

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

And already, from your comment and the hadiths that were brought up, theres a subjective allowance for cosmetic surgery

Yeah but I'm pretty sure you could come up with a general set of conditions for those allowances

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

allahu alam in all things

ws

word

[Bruinrab]

And thus we discover the blurring of the line between reconstructive and cosmetic surgery. They are never independent of each other. Well, except for cat lady.

[Salika]

I think generally the line between disfigurement and enhancement is pretty clear. There are might be some instances where they overlap or the line is blurred, but we can't base law on anamolies (this is an Islamic juridical principle). Law generally needs to have as many clear cut lines as possible so that people know what to expect. If someone thinks their situation is different, they can go to mufti about their specific situation... that's what fatwas are for. Traditionally, scholars did take into account an individual's situation and as a rule, a fatwa only applies to someone who is similarly situated.

Also, sometimes we just have to set aside our vanity and obsession with unrealistic perfection, which unfortunately, our society sometimes makes difficult.

[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by Salika

I think generally the line between disfigurement and enhancement is pretty clear. There are might be some instances where they overlap or the line is blurred

Hang out with plastic surgeons long enough and you'll discover that line is blurred in most cases, not just some.

[Salika]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Hang out with plastic surgeons long enough and you'll discover that line is blurred in most cases, not just some.

Can you give an example?

And is that really the best test? I mean plastic surgeons are already getting a certain population to begin with. If you look at the general public, I'm sure someone has a gripe or two, but those who actually go to plastic surgeons are already a level above.

[Ilikemyscarf]

Times is really going by fast, i'm almost 20. I don't feel like i've accomplished anything. I don't even know what I want to do with my life.

[Budmano786]

I've had similar discussions with people regarding dentistry and orthodontics...allahualim.

[thejellymill]

Originally Posted by ShotgunMessiah

I'm going to be 25 this year. That's when people have their quarter-life crisis, but I'm already married and owning a home so I don't know what kind of crazy crap I'm going to do for mine. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

You should bake your wife a cake, plant yourself in the middle and jump out at her when she walks in the door! 1) You made your own birthday cake and 2) You surprised her! Do you get it? You know when the husband goes through the midlife crisis and does the stripclub thing with a stripper jumping out of the cake (or is that a bachelor party? )...except you're keeping it halaal but the theme is similar...uhhhh...and I sound like an idiot dont I?

[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by Salika

Can you give an example?

And is that really the best test? I mean plastic surgeons are already getting a certain population to begin with. If you look at the general public, I'm sure someone has a gripe or two, but those who actually go to plastic surgeons are already a level above.

Sure.

One surgeon that I worked with did a lot of post-bariatric surgery work. These were patients who had lost 100+ lbs. Now, these people, while far healthier than before, still have issues, the worst of which is excess skin. The fat is gone, but the stretched skin remains, empty. It not only looks very unattractive, but for many people it gets in the way (imagine running with a mass of redundant skin hitting your legs with every step) and can lead to fungal infections, etc. Once you get to a certain amount of weight loss, that skin simply won't go back on it's own. But once you go to a plastic surgeon, they aren't just going to hack it all off. They make sure it looks neat, everything's symmetrical, and that it looks as good as it possibly can.


Another example is post-mastectomy reconstruction. After a mastectomy, you could argue (and for many years, insurance companies did) that a reconstruction has no medical benefit. The reconstructed breast can never be functional, and it's form can be substituted by prosthetic devices. However, reconstruction clearly has psychological benefits for patients.

Generally, though, it's impossible to get a decent looking result by just operating on the affected breast - the other one usually needs a lift and/or reduction to get anything approaching a "normal" appearing chest. So, not only have you reconstructed something that arguably didn't need to be reconstructed, you've also operated on a perfectly normal breast as well. But as a woman, try even thinking of whether you could deny another woman that right, especially one who has already suffered through cancer.

[Salika]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab