[Budmano786]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Budmano, as I said, it's a complex issue.

Originally, I was very against the cosmetic aspects of plastic surgery. But, I've seen enough cases where people are mentally suffering (yes, that word is strong, but it applies) because of what they perceive to be a single, significant physical defect. Whether it's a large bump on their nose or breasts that have seriously "deflated" after breast-feeding, it's something that stands out to them, becomes a focus point, and does actually cause them distress. They may be perfectly happy with the rest of their bodies, but these patients desperately want one particular thing corrected. In those cases, I have no problem doing the surgery, if (and only if):

• the patient has realistic expectations
• the patient's health is not at risk
• I'm sure that there's not a non-surgical option

There are certain cases in which I won't operate:

• patients under the age of 18, unless they are post-bariatric surgery
• patients whose mental health is fragile (eg not sure what they want, in the middle of a divorce, etc.)
• patients for whom the risk outweighs the benefit
• patients who expectations are not in alignment with what I know I can do

I formed these opinions over a few months observing and working with plastic surgeons whose technical skills and ethics I respect. These are not Dr. Rey types who will inflate every breast in a 10 mile radius if they have the opportunity. They have years of experience in the field and are very talented at handling the mental aspects of plastic surgery as well - indeed, as one of my psychiatry attendings joked with me, part of the reason I'm going into plastics is because I'll be practicing fake psychiatry.

I like that psychological aspect, being empathic, managing patient expectations and so on. But part of my training as a surgeon, believe it or not, will be a strong grounding in when not to operate, since any medical or surgical procedure has an inherent risk (heck, you could get MRSA from acupuncture ).

Of course, I also like the artistic aspect - you need a good sense of proportion and what will look best on a particular patient, finesse, and a desire not to stop until you are satisfied with how your work looks.

Now keep in mind, I still don't intend to make cosmetics the bulk of my practice. I hope to keep it below 50% of what I do, simply because to me, reconstruction is more interesting. There's a lot more thought that goes into correcting a unique structural defect that you may never have seen before - and still making it look good.

Now, that's not to say that I don't have respect for God's creation or an inflated idea of my own abilities. I still say bismillah every time I step into the OR.

Bud, I know that's long, but I hope it's clearer than mud.

okay, but how about those not suffering mental problems due to their apperance...who just want it because they want it...a young, 22 year old attractive girl with an attractive apperance who wants breast augmentation...she doesn't tell you why, but she wants it...very straight forward case, healthy, everything lines up...something like that...I ask because some of the things I do in my line of work are similar to plastics

[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by Budmano786

okay, but how about those not suffering mental problems due to their apperance...who just want it because they want it...a young, 22 year old attractive girl with an attractive apperance who wants breast augmentation...she doesn't tell you why, but she wants it...very straight forward case, healthy, everything lines up...something like that...I ask because some of the things I do in my line of work is similar to plastics

That, I have more of an issue with. If a patient can't articulate to me why they want a procedure, I'm not going to do it. If it's "I want to fill out clothes better because nothing fits properly" and she's flat as a board, that's one thing - she's just given me a reason to operate on her. But if she just wants it because it's the fashionable thing to do, or "just because" I won't operate.

I have no problem saying to a patient that I need a good reason to cut them open, because they need to have their own idea of what their personal cost-benefit ratio is. If they don't have a good reason for getting the work done, ultimately the cost of having the surgery is going to be too great - they'll go from being ok pre-op to being unhappy post-op (and they will find something to be unhappy with). It plays into the whole psychological aspect, patient selection, and how to avoid getting your ass sued.

[MossadConspiracy]

bro, all kidding aside I think its gonna be up to individual practitioners making the judgment on a case by case basis in their own practice. For elective cases, and especially cosmetic ones, surgeons have a right to turn a patient away. I think its too complicated for any sweeping judgment to ever adequately cover the ins and outs of this subject, no matter how many qualifications and exceptions are worked into it. I think practitioners get a feel for the kind of stuff they're comfortable doing and the kind of stuff they arent, and in the private practice setting they'll be able to make those choices.

ws

[Budmano786]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

bro, all kidding aside I think its gonna be up to individual practitioners making the judgment on a case by case basis in their own practice. For elective cases, and especially cosmetic ones, surgeons have a right to turn a patient away. I think its too complicated for any sweeping judgment to ever adequately cover the ins and outs of this subject, no matter how many qualifications and exceptions are worked into it. I think practitioners get a feel for the kind of stuff they're comfortable doing and the kind of stuff they arent, and in the private practice setting they'll be able to make those choices.

ws

but we're not talking from a medico-legal point of view or a "what am I comfortable doing" point of view...we're talking about the permissibility from a religious stand point...if i'm not mistaken, thats how this whole discussion started in this thread

[Aida]

Originally Posted by Ameerah

I only feel old when a close friend gets married or has a kid. But then I look at where I'm heading and what they're doing/where they're heading. I definitely prefer the path I've chosen, alhamdulillah.

That being said, I'm not actually that old.

Hush Aida, Hajisaab and Peaceful.

Age is nothing but a number. Our community places too much emphasis on the number. I've seen women in their late 30's/early 40's acting like they're in their teens. It's a sight to see .

I usually forget how old I am and then it hits me. I have lost track since age 16, hence I'm still 16 at heart.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Budmano786

but we're not talking from a medico-legal point of view or a "what am I comfortable doing" point of view...we're talking about the permissibility from a religious stand point...if i'm not mistaken, thats how this whole discussion started in this thread

well, yeah but in that case I can pretty much guarantee that if you go to some mufti and ask them they are going to tell you that cosmetic procedures are not permissible across the board. They'll make the statement with no medical knowledge or experience, and no consideration to the complexities of medical practice (of which they are ignorant). Every fatwa i've ever seen on this subject has been like that. There might be a few dissidents out there, i dunno

ws

[Salika]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

well, yeah but in that case I can pretty much guarantee that if you go to some mufti and ask them they are going to tell you that cosmetic procedures are not permissible across the board. They'll make the statement with no medical knowledge or experience, and no consideration to the complexities of medical practice (of which they are ignorant). Every fatwa i've ever seen on this subject has been like that. There might be a few dissidents out there, i dunno

ws

Does your experience include reconstructive surgery as well?

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Salika

Does your experience include reconstructive surgery as well?

well no, cosmetic and reconstructive are different. Theres alot of overlap between the two but somewhere a line exists between one field and the other. The issue is where the line is drawn. As far as I'm concerned, individual muslim practitioners who choose to draw the line should each decide for themselves where it is because they are the ones who are qualified to do so. Thats just my opinion.

I have my own views on what a muslim plastic surgeon should and shouldnt do but those are just my own personal opinions. If i'm a plastic surgeon at some point rather than a doctor in some other field, then those opinions are going to be the basis for how I run my practice. Again, another person could choose to ask somebody with a Doctorate from Al-Azhar in the Islamic sciences about whether certain procedures are allowed or not. Personal preferences, i guess

This is the same argument as the one regarding various abortion procedures, but in this case the stakes are much lower

ws

[kellyjaz]

Women can look young even they are old.