food for thought

[real]

salam alaikum.

this is directed at all who "debate" shia sunni issues. this is not a mod post, no one told me to do this. im doing this cos i think you are all better muslims at heart and have more important areas of life that could use your attention. forgive me if i come up short or hostile in my perspective.

[18:110] Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.

this place is my home - laughs, political discussion, for the common bound. it got me through school. there are good people here and to me, thats whats been important. in my early islamica life, i was a little too comfortable with my thoughts. offline i was always accepted as "different" and "outcasted" whether it was because was a brownie in a white area or a shia, dont know but it really didnt phase me.

some time passed before i made a post about ghadir e khum. it was just an informative post; i wasn't ignorant to the fact that this was a sunni dominated board. the idea was never relevent. anyway it got locked up, and there were ppl on both sides; all sunni. that was relevent being the only shia back then. honestly i laughed at the rhetoric, but was disappointed generally. later i became emotional. and so began the retarded one up fights over our faiths. if we still had the archive, i would show you how closely history repeats itself. in the end i was no better than the people i debated against, i assure you.

since, i have taken on educating myself of the more relevent parts of my submission to God, such as my wife and family, keeping to my deen. etc. every day is jihad alhamdolilah. there is more barkat in doing the simple priorities of religion rather than getting involved in debate to prove things that jafar as sadiq (as) said pertaining to a belief. or what really happened at saqifah.

dawah (its the only postive goal i can see to post some of the things ive seen) cannot be done with rhetoric. azher once said, "if a website changes your belief, you have serious issues." to add, that person's faith is prolly weak. people who are irrational, call others names' or mocking their beliefs, also have faith issues. of course this is not the real world. this is the recess of your mind on binary code. one is more inclined to say something they wouldn't say in person. and in full emotion. like God doesnt have an OC46.

[29:2] Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, We believe, and not be tried?

my post here is just to say: hang up your cleats. im sure youre all at the age where you want to make a difference in your lives. thats great mashallah. im just saying that the fitna which begins with such arguments is not worth your good deeds. "save yourself" didnt wanna sound evangelical but yea.

this neverending debate will ensue, of course, because there will always be ignorant people. in fact its only gonna get worse. one can say "whats the harm in educating? i didnt say anything wrong! i was only informing!" if what one will say will lead to arguments and fitna and disrespectful discourse was it really worth it? no positive goal is being accomplished. the result will cause everyone who reads the argument to sin.

'unity' is an individual choice. many say that unity cannot be achieved. i agree, there is too much fitna, folks. people who do not practice their 'teaching' also contribute.
one can propose to embrace our common belief. respect others' beliefs. leave the rest to Allah. we are no better than each other, if so, we cannot judge, and should be busy with other things to attend to.... like becoming better muslims. these are people (of both madhabs) that claim to believe in the prophet (saw) follow his sunnah, read His Book, believe in His Oneness, and the Last Day. we have no authority.

and i mean seriously. its 1429 AH. do you know where your Mahdi (as) is? hah, i always wanted to say that.

[13:11] For his sake there are angels following one another, before him and behind him, who guard him by Allah's commandment; surely Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition; and when Allah intends evil to a people, there is no averting it, and besides Him they have no protector.

seriously though. my observation is that our world is reverting to the stage of jahiliyyah. people are misusing our beliefs, and speaking for us. our people are being killed by us, something we've started. and here we are whining about what is right: praying with our hands next to us or crossed. praying 15 minutes before sunrise or after. jesus christ, some muslims dont pray. go help them if you want to help others! leave the ones who are observing their faith to Allah; either way He is the only One who can help them. there is no reason to create fitna because you feel that they are wrong. dont be so egostitical. there is enough propaganda against all of us.

many others may feel arrogant to the fact. they claim they have strong belief. they feel their lives are stable and they are dedicated to the service of their religion. they can prove the inconsistancies in the others' belief. thats great.

[2:18] Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path)

anyone can post "proofs" in response to anything. it takes a real momin to be a living example. you can't tell me there is nothing more constructive to do.

believe me im no different than any of you. i had my time throwing the mud back and forth and in the end, its just irrelevent. there would have been nothing wrong if we were indifferent to sunni and shia. and if it is so relevent to seek knowledge on, amazon.com has lists of books you can buy to educate yourself (unless you feel its worth your time and deeds to prove your rhetoric) otherwise there are many websites for shias and sunnis respectively have full books online. there are other forums where you can go for advice within your belief or the other. it might even be an idea to create separate databases for reference of the madhabs right here at good ol' islamica.

so.. if you hear what im sayin it is for your own benefit. str8 up i gain nothing from this. Allah Malik. He Provides. if not, also Allah Malik.

[109:6] To you be your Way, and to me mine.

of course, unfortunately this does not change the state of the two madhabs. the quarrel is between our master's (saw) companions and family. this is an issue not designed to resolve until the Last Day. why worry about the things we will not understand that will work themselves out eventually inshallah? unless you feel you are not strong in your belief or youre searching. and if so, you might be in the wrong place.

wasalam
deepreal

[Zam]

real said

anyone can post "proofs" in response to anything. it takes a real momin to be a living example.

good point

[Jamroll]

Salam,

I actually didn't realise you'd made this thread. Maybe others missed it too, I dunno. Another factor may be that the kind of people that would be most likely to have very strong views on this thread, i.e. the "sectarian-types", are currently (most of them anyway) on suspensions. Also, I think the rest of Islamica has probably got a certain amount of burnout from these Sunni-Shia flame-fests and just can't be bothered anymore.

The following are my personal views, not the official position of the moderators:

Personally, I had always felt that debate and discussion about the issues that Sunni and Shia differ on are useful discussions to have. If nothing else, they at least allow a better appreciation of where the "other side" is coming from, whether you agree with where they're coming from or not.

Unfortunately, given the subject matter, emotions can easily get very flared up, and all decent and civil discussion goes out of the window. It becomes quite tribal. Even the more mild-mannered among us can get caught up in it, despite our best intentions. It's for that reason, that I sometimes wonder whether it just wouldn't be better to knock the whole Sunni-Shia "debate and discussion" (if we can even call it that) on the head.

And then, on the other hand it would be a shame to not allow threads discussing Sunni-Shia topics. Islamica has always been relatively free in order to discuss topics in a way that other places would deem too hairy, or offensive, or problematic. But at the end of the day there needs to be a certain amount of civility in order to have these discussions.

The problem is, given the way the Sunni and Shia belief systems are structured, there are very strong positions taken on the central figures in this ongoing dispute, the Prophet's Companions. Essentially one side is staunchly for them, and one side staunchly against. The ones that are for them will never be able to hear things that criticise them in strong terms without getting upset, or feeling it as a malicious attack. The ones that are staunchly against them will never be able to hear things that praise them without getting upset, or feeling that the real issues are being glossed over. I don't think there can be reconciliation on these two positions and for that reason, (I'm just thinking out loud here) it may be best to avoid all discussion on the Prophet's Companions in the context of a Sunni-Shia dialogue.

I'm not sure how many people actually benefit from the types of threads we're talking about, other than to be put off the whole thing. Does anyone feel it's beneficial to see two or more people going toe-to-toe on issues in such a hostile manner. 9 times out of 10 neither of the "fighters" are going to change their views in the slightest. Are the people that are reading their battle actually getting any benefit? Are the people reading their battle able to get past the rhetoric and mudslinging and actually see the material the two fighters are trying to put forward?

[Laimuun]

real said

seriously though. my observation is that our world is reverting to the stage of jahiliyyah. people are misusing our beliefs, and speaking for us. our people are being killed by us, something we've started. and here we are whining about what is right: praying with our hands next to us or crossed. praying 15 minutes before sunrise or after. jesus christ, some muslims dont pray. go help them if you want to help others! leave the ones who are observing their faith to Allah; either way He is the only One who can help them. there is no reason to create fitna because you feel that they are wrong. dont be so egostitical. there is enough propaganda against all of us.

for sure.

[Khairan]

real said

dawah...cannot be done with rhetoric.

In my mind I have always felt this but never had it in so many words. I think there are several problems with regards to this ongoing "debate," but not least among them is a desire to "defend" one's beliefs. Sunnis frequently feel that shias, simply by virtue of existing and practicing shiaism, are attacking "Islam." Shias in an environment such as this feel compelled to defend themselves from what can only be considered slander upon their faith and their right to be "Muslim."

As anyone who has known me here for a while will know, my own thoughts regarding shiaism are complex -- I have found it ironic, then, that I frequently find myself arguing for people to have the right to believe things even I don't necessarily believe and still to be acknowledged as Muslim.

If it is possible to add anything to the beautifully composed thoughts real has offered above, I will say only this: the most fundamental issue at hand here is not who is right and who is wrong, but who is allowed to partake in the common dialogue which shapes and defines our culture. I personally believe takfir -- specifically the act of declaring a human being who has otherwise declared his Islam to be an unbeliever -- sits at the heart of this issue. Once we allow a place for takfir, we also allow that it people, and not God alone, who can be judges of iman and of Islam.

So long as we accept this the best we can ever hope for in our respective battles is a Pyrrhic victory.

[Revert]

All beautiful and thought provoking pooints guys. MashaAllah may Allah reward you all for them.

I myself have been doing the old 360 and to be honest, i'm sick of ALL the flame wars, sunni-shia, Salafi-Sunni(for lack of a better word), The Shia bashing, Salafi-Bashing, Sufi-Bashing all needs to stop, you know why, ITS JUST A FREAKING WEBSITE!

We all have our respective views, some may know more than others but that doesn't begin to make them a better Muslim, you can't get into Jannah on knowledge alone, you have to act on it too.

Read the Quran, love your fellow human being, do good, pray and listen to those you trust, don't worry about madhaabs, fiqh, aqidah, kalam and all that stuff, unless you wan't go down the path of being an 'alim of course.

The Quran is ther for us to read, understand and practice, no one can tell you any different. If you utter the kalima and beleive it and don't be rude, then you are my brother or sister in ISlam.


BE a Shia, Be a Sunni, Be a SalafI be whatever makes you happy, but i'll always engage you and if you're in my neck of the woods, you'll totally be treated to a warm drink and a welcoming manner.

Asalaamu'Alaikum

[wheelworks]

real said

salam alaikum.

Woah where in the world did you pop up from? I don't recall ever having seen you before, nor did anyone ever mention you. Any other mods in hibernation that I don't know about?

[Revert]

wheelworks said

Woah where in the world did you pop up from? I don't recall ever having seen you before, nor did anyone ever mention you. Any other mods in hibernation that I don't know about?

There are a couple more. Unless they got de-modded.

[wheelworks]

Revert said

There are a couple more. Unless they got de-modded.

I bet Saladin is one of them

[real]

Jamroll said

I'm not sure how many people actually benefit from the types of threads we're talking about, other than to be put off the whole thing. Does anyone feel it's beneficial to see two or more people going toe-to-toe on issues in such a hostile manner. 9 times out of 10 neither of the "fighters" are going to change their views in the slightest. Are the people that are reading their battle actually getting any benefit? Are the people reading their battle able to get past the rhetoric and mudslinging and actually see the material the two fighters are trying to put forward?

excellent jamroll.. those are the exact same questions i had. it seems to always come down to that "us VS them" and you know thats just not going to get anyone anywhere. any constructive thoughts cannot continue on this path of consistent argument.

its when a 'debate' escalates to flaming and spirals out of control. its fitna man. anyone who reads it, not to mention the ones involved.. could possibly get a negative mark from those dudes on our shoulders. the thoughts that are spawed from such debates are unhealthy for a muslim/momin.

and i agree, these discussions are healthy, given the control of both believers is intact. i dont and havent seen it here, myself included. (rarely. there was an old schooler named Nawab, may God keep him in good health. offhand i cant think of anyone else.) my jihad is not with others, its with myself. sure we sunnis and shias criss cross the definitions within islam and all that. both sides are aware of the others' belief. but yknow most of us live in nonmuslim lands and we got no problem saying angelina jolie is hot and watching american idol and jon stewart. what sort of hypocrisy is it to make takfir on bbs forum and then go and watch family guy or rob and big? yeah real brilliant sherlock.

Revert said

We all have our respective views, some may know more than others but that doesn't begin to make them a better Muslim, you can't get into Jannah on knowledge alone, you have to act on it too.

Read the Quran, love your fellow human being, do good, pray and listen to those you trust, don't worry about madhaabs, fiqh, aqidah, kalam and all that stuff, unless you wan't go down the path of being an 'alim of course.

The Quran is ther for us to read, understand and practice, no one can tell you any different. If you utter the kalima and beleive it and don't be rude, then you are my brother or sister in ISlam.

werd. well said. thats really what its about, because the message was sent twice before and our previous ummah(s) were so involved in power and wealth, they didnt see it. the jews and xtians today are proof of that. islam is simple and forever alhamdolilah.

and the aalim path, i mean, its good to get a feel for who you will be helping but training to be an aalim.. im sure islamica is not a prerequisite. nowhatimsayin? Allah Malik though i guess.

wheelworks said

Woah where in the world did you pop up from? I don't recall ever having seen you before, nor did anyone ever mention you. Any other mods in hibernation that I don't know about?

im around, i just dont post very often. i tried to be a stable poster but it didnt work. i call it 'game over' but you probably call it 'getting married.'

[Revert]

real said

werd. well said. thats really what its about, because the message was sent twice before and our previous ummah(s) were so involved in power and wealth, they didnt see it. the jews and xtians today are proof of that. islam is simple and forever alhamdolilah.

and the aalim path, i mean, its good to get a feel for who you will be helping but training to be an aalim.. im sure islamica is not a prerequisite. nowhatimsayin? Allah Malik though i guess.

Nah man I was saying don't worry about fiqh and aqidah etc...unless you want to become an 'alim. Islamica is only a requisite for a poor social life haha.

Our job is to learn the Quran as best we can and act upon it. Be good people like your good self!

[LEGALEAGLE]

I don't see the need for Sunni 'Unity' with any other group...the term is an oxymoron in any case...if you disagree with a group it's not possible to be 'unified' with them whilst still differing with them..

To you your way and to me mine

[sumi]

... i totally came in here expecting some sort of discussion on food..

[infamousbrown]

How about getting an RSS feed going?

[Jaysh]

Deleted....post not going through.