[Manaar]

Originally Posted by wheelworks

Thats what you call one complicated lifestyle. Is it even worth it?

We're a crazy breed, i've got to admit, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Lots of Muslim students accumulate student loans too.

And Khairan, that sheds some light, but they're gonna be able to pay back their loans in not too long a time.

I think you missed the part where one of the couple was an anesthesiologist. As I've said before, although debt is onerous for anybody, it is much easier and more reasonable for specialists to shoulder than for primary practitioners.

You're also being very flippant about the opportunity costs to the individual of paying off these loans. I'm not really arguing here WHETHER they can be paid. They can. Banks wouldn't be handing out money by the hundreds of thousands to medical students unless they were confident of that. The issue, as always, is one of return on investment (a phrase I will keep repeating and coming back to).

It's EASY for someone who doesn't face these debts and the personal costs of shouldering them for 10-20 years to say that they are no big deal. It's much different when you are facing having to do it yourself.

Further, I disagree that seven years (people usually spend longer than this paying off their loans) is "not too long a time." In the context of overall training and with what people who have equivalent or less education are able to do with their lives, it is a HUGE amount of time.

In the context of a profession which demands a significant investment of TIME in training (time in which other people are working, earning, and saving), frequently requires large investment of personal resources into buying into medical practices (for which doctors need to take out even more loans), purchasing necessary equipment and updating that equipment to keep pace with the market, and paying for malpractice insurance and STILL needing to put aside money for oneself, settling down, buying property, paying for children and their education, and saving for retirement, these loans are very much a big deal.

My point is that the equation you are using to judge the value of these loans is far too simple. As you say it, it includes only two factors: income and educational debt. In fact, there are numerous other realities, which I have enumerated above, that play into this picture and which, while easily ignored, are no less real for having been so.

[wheelworks]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

if they really love what they are doing, then it's worth it.

I find it hard to believe that it's difficult to find something they love doing that isn't as time consuming and requires much less debt

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by hefty

if u're planning on becoming a doctor for the money, good luck to u. u won't be getting the bling for a good 20 yrs after graduating, no joke.

Interestingly, from what I've seen desi parents at least tend not to mind this. Not sure how it is with other communities, but Indians still lend a lot of prestige to the title of "doctor" and see simply having the title/education as a pretty big deal, and don't really care that you're only financially settled much later on. Americans tend to care more about the financial aspects and are less focused on the degree itself.

I'm of course generalizing very broadly here.

[RestlessSoul]

Originally Posted by YOUSUFofSD

Why is this an issue with Muslims, we aren't allowed to use interest? If its just a general comment article...yea thats crazy, its too bad that they make students go so much into dept going into a great and helpful profession.

no one makes med students go into debt, it's a choice they make knowing that the career involves substantial initial investment. if someone has the capability to make it into and succeed in graduate school, they probably have the ambition to succeed in another line of work. they could have gone to a cheaper school, lived at home, or even choose another desirable profession.

many scholars have addressed the loans for education issue already, saying that if you can't afford a certain education b/c you don't have the means, then perhaps Allah (swt) has decreed that it is not in your rizq to become a doctor. you have to find other ways of obtaining a halal source of income. in this country, however, there are ways to become a doctor even if you come from a working class family. Simply go into primary care and the government will pay for you (and you repay by working in an urban/rural underserved area for a while).

Originally Posted by Khairan

I'm of course generalizing very broadly here.

We'll have none of that here on Islamica

[YOUSUFofSD]

Originally Posted by RestlessSoul

no one makes med students go into debt, it's a choice they make knowing that the career involves substantial initial investment. if someone has the capability to make it into and succeed in graduate school, they probably have the ambition to succeed in another line of work. they could have gone to a cheaper school, lived at home, or even choose another desirable profession.

many scholars have addressed the loans for education issue already, saying that if you can't afford a certain education b/c you don't have the means, then perhaps Allah (swt) has decreed that it is not in your rizq to become a doctor. you have to find other ways of obtaining a halal source of income. in this country, however, there are ways to become a doctor even if you come from a working class family. Simply go into primary care and the government will pay for you (and you repay by working in an urban/rural underserved area for a while).

bro, i don't think we disagree on this issue at all

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Khairan

I think you missed the part where one of the couple was an anesthesiologist. As I've said before, although debt is onerous for anybody, it is much easier and more reasonable for specialists to shoulder than for primary practitioners.

You're also being very flippant about the opportunity costs to the individual of paying off these loans. I'm not really arguing here WHETHER they can be paid. They can. Banks wouldn't be handing out money by the hundreds of thousands to medical students unless they were confident of that. The issue, as always, is one of return on investment (a phrase I will keep repeating and coming back to).

It's EASY for someone who doesn't face these debts and the personal costs of shouldering them for 10-20 years to say that they are no big deal. It's much different when you are facing having to do it yourself.

Further, I disagree that seven years (people usually spend longer than this paying off their loans) is "not too long a time." In the context of overall training and with what people who have equivalent or less education are able to do with their lives, it is a HUGE amount of time.

In the context of a profession which demands a significant investment of TIME in training (time in which other people are working, earning, and saving), frequently requires large investment of personal resources into buying into medical practices (for which doctors need to take out even more loans), purchasing necessary equipment and updating that equipment to keep pace with the market, and paying for malpractice insurance and STILL needing to put aside money for oneself, settling down, buying property, paying for children and their education, and saving for retirement, these loans are very much a big deal.

My point is that the equation you are using to judge the value of these loans is far too simple. As you say it, it includes only two factors: income and educational debt. In fact, there are numerous other realities, which I have enumerated above, that play into this picture and which, while easily ignored, are no less real for having been so.

Yeah, well... that certainly debunks the myth that doctors are rolling in it. But other than that... yeah, it's a lot of debt, but people want to be doctors. You all still get the status. And you're certainly not gonna be poor.

And yeah, it is easy for me to say, because I'm not hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. By the time I'm done school InshaAllah, I'll probably be like max. 30 K in debt and even that freaks me out. So yeah, debt is scary.

But no, seven years is not a long time.

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by Timbit

But no, seven years is not a long time.

Well, let's take me as an example. I've got a little over half the debt which the couple in the article does but am only a single earner, so let's say we are roughly comparable financially (for the sake of argument). I will have trained for ten years before I am earning a salary with which I can pay off that debt. Supposing I use the seven years cited in the article to pay that off -- that's seventeen years of significant debt that I am carrying. Meanwhile, my friend who dropped out of college and got into the computer industry has less than one tenth of the debt that I do, has been working for four years already and is now earning a six-figure salary while in his twenties.

Now, I'm not saying I could just up and do what my friend is doing: he's talented and has been able to get by without a degree because he's good at what he does and his professional reputation reflects that. The point I'm making is that the "seven years," just like the salary doctors make, is not a figure that exists in a vacuum.

Maybe you feel differently (and if you do I'm happy to accept that we have a difference of opinion here), but to me there is a big difference between needing seven years to pay off a debt that I started paying off after college and finished paying off in my early thirties, and taking seven years to pay a debt that I couldn't possibly begin to pay off until I am well INTO my thirties. My wife (if I ever find a lady who is silly enough to marry me) will have to deal with having a husband who isn't financially stable for several years.

If all goes according to plan then inshallah I will be working a job that I totally love and which will be paying me very well by the time I hit my mid thirties, and I'll be financially settled by the time I hit my forties. So, as I said, I'm not really concerned with my debt. I am quite confident that I can handle it and I've got no complaints. Then again, I'm not planning on being an internist (God bless them).

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Khairan

I'm of course generalizing very broadly here.

No you're not, and you know it.

[MossadConspiracy]

in all honesty, i really dont think its all that bad. you dont have to buy a rolex watch and a jaguar and a mcmansion during the first couple of years of practice. save that stuff for your midlife crisis. Paying 10 or even 20 percent of a young attending's salary towards loan repayment still leaves a very significant amount of money that can be used for other things.

The problem is that alot of young docs expect to live very high on the hog and dont like being forced to live like regular middle class or upper middle class people for some years

[ChotooMotoo]

7 years to pay back your debt is very short. Imagine needing the full 30 years to pay back your debt.

[Khairan]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

7 years to pay back your debt is very short. Imagine needing the full 30 years to pay back your debt.

Oh, definitely -- I agree that someone who has a more modest debt but makes so little that they can't pay it back for several decades has a much harder deal. I'm just saying that the "seven years" is a bit longer than it sounds.

[wheelworks]

Originally Posted by Khairan

I am quite confident that I can handle it and I've got no complaints. Then again, I'm not planning on being an internist (God bless them).

What about all that interest you paid off in order to settle that debt? How are you gonna explain it to Allah on the day of judgement?

[SaidAbdullahofDarfur]

Originally Posted by wheelworks

What about all that interest you paid off in order to settle that debt? How are you gonna explain it to Allah on the day of judgement?

Or what about participating in the deadly dance of medical capitalism?
FDA, Insurance, College, Hospitals, and Drug companies, and Pharmacies...

all looking out for each other, with no regard for their fellow man...

How are you going to explain that to ALLAH(SWT)

and all of this for what?

a piece of paper?