[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Well, that's her choice... but how long is she gonna do that? Maternal leave is what? A year at the most? You don't need to stay home until your kids are grown up and out of the house. You can work part-time or from home if your job allows it.

I just hate to see women screwing themselves over.

I'm not saying it never works out and you shouldn't trust your spouse. Obviously, you should only marry them if you trust them. My mom has rarely worked outside the home in her life and she's doing okay, 'cause my dad supports her and all of us. But too often, it doesn't work out like that. Anything can happen to your husband... and then you have to work, but it's hard tp find a job if you've been out of the workforce for years.

Lots of women leave their kids at daycares or with nannies or family members. Why should they be made to feel guilty about it? Oftentimes people are like "Oh, she doesn't have to work so why does she? She should stay home with her kids."

I see what you're saying, but I don't see why a woman should be career-oriented to feel fulfilled. She chose to get married, and I'm sure she had a say regarding having a child, so why does a woman have to feel like she's been cheated into this arrangement where she'd have to give up her life? Isn't this her life, too?

What is more important? A woman's career or her children, who will have to grow up used to her absence? What's the point of being a mother if you don't want to take care of the kids yourself, and don't want to feel guilty about it, too? People should fear Allah. Kids are amanah from Allah. You want them to carry out their duties towards you; do the same to them. Otherwise they won't feel like they'd need to treat you with respect and reverence. I'm sure the nanny or whoever takes care of them would be more deserving of that.

When a woman chooses to be a mother, that's a career by itself. I don't know why some women can't see how equally fulfilling that is, just like any other full time job. You may not get official promotions and big titles on a business card you can hand out to people, but you'll have a nice family life and successful children. And of course, reward from Allah.

I have a younger sister who is about to get married. When our young cousins come over, she watches them screaming and jumping on the sofas, smashing everything right and left ... she confides to me, "I'm never going to have kids like that. I'll teach them to behave." But my sister wants to have a career, and she's most probably going to have helpers at home ... so there you go. When is she going to teach them? Weekends? I know she'll come home to kids who aren't exactly what she had planned for them to be. It's your choice.

[Arabesque]

I think I must add: Unless the guy asks you to be an obedient wife, not answer the phone and not go out without him ... then he's not a total psycho Meaning, asking you to compromise with regards to your career becomes reasonable.

[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I think I must add: Unless the guy asks you to be an obedient wife, not answer the phone and not go out without him ... then he's not a total psycho Meaning, asking you to compromise with regards to your career becomes reasonable.

...Suggesting the extreme and suggesting someone should be thankful for not being there, does not justify the act of something else. It's like saying, "be thankful you're just drowning, you could have been eaten by a shark". Both suck even though one may seem worse than the other.

Pre nups depend on the kind of marriage, a lot of islamic marriages begin without knowing the other person very well. In that case people prefer the insurance blanket of having one. There's nothing wrong with that, in fact it's great that women are aware that this man might not be the wonder of their lives and that there is a life beyond that, if ever it doesn't work out.

I'd be friends with someone for a very long while before i decide to get married to him, if i do want to marry him. What i find strange is including whether you can or can't work in your prenup. Something like that, doesn't concern your husband, it's got nothing to do with him, unless you both have kids of course. Other than that, it's none of his concern.

I agree completely with sugarberry, it's completely important to remain an individual and to maintain an indendent personality. Not only does it provide strength to a partnership but it prevents a marriage from becoming boring!

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Bluestar

I'd be friends with someone for a very long while before i decide to get married to him, if i do want to marry him. What i find strange is including whether you can or can't work in your prenup. Something like that, doesn't concern your husband, it's got nothing to do with him, unless you both have kids of course. Other than that, it's none of his concern.

I agree completely with sugarberry, it's completely important to remain an individual and to maintain an indendent personality. Not only does it provide strength to a partnership but it prevents a marriage from becoming boring!

I agree. You can focus on your career and your ambitions, until you have kids. Then it becomes the husband's business, I'm afraid. He has the right to want his kids to be raised by their mother, not some nanny or a grandmother.

I'm sure that one of the factors men take into consideration when marrying a woman is whether or not they'd like for her to mother their kids. Mothering is more than just carrying the baby for 9 months and then delivering it. Why should he allow for his child to feed from a bottle, simply because the wife is busy with work and can't take frequent breaks to feed the child? It's not reasonable, and it's not right. Forget the husband. It's not right for the kids.

If your life is all about you, then don't have kids. Or don't get married. Just keep in mind that you are accountable in front of Allah when He gifts you with a child. If you have other priorities, then don't ask for that gift. That's all I'm saying.

[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I agree. You can focus on your career and your ambitions, until you have kids. Then it becomes the husband's business, I'm afraid. He has the right to want his kids to be raised by their mother, not some nanny or a grandmother.

i don't believe that, since the children are born from both parents, both parents have the responsibility of coming to an agreement as to what will be best for the children and for themselves. Looking after children requires yourself to be sane as well and it's important for both parents to get some sort of enjoyment from somewhere. If they are happy, they will give that happiness to their children. In this case, both parents may need to sacrifice or maybe just one, either way it should be a decision made with loads of discussion and understanding from each other.

I'm sure that one of the factors men take into consideration when marrying a woman is whether or not they'd like for her to mother their kids. Mothering is more than just carrying the baby for 9 months and then delivering it. Why should he allow for his child to feed from a bottle, simply because the wife is busy with work and can't take frequent breaks to feed the child? It's not reasonable, and it's not right. Forget the husband. It's not right for the kids.

Maternity leave has been extended to 9 months now i think, which is adequate time to breast feed and wean your baby depending on when you want your child to be weaned.

That if course depends again on what the parents want. Personally, as i've said before, i would love to stay at home and homeschool my children. I don't trust the National Curriculum.

If your life is all about you, then don't have kids. Or don't get married. Just keep in mind that you are accountable in front of Allah when He gifts you with a child. If you have other priorities, then don't ask for that gift. That's all I'm saying.

The mother is not solely responsible for the children, a lot of people always think the fathers only function is to provide financial security for the children. I know that's not always easy but i know it's not enough. If a couple were both to work part time and looked after the children between themselves, that would be perfect for some people and the father would play more of a role in the childrens lives instead of being a figure who comes home tired in the evenings and sits in the corner.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Bluestar

i don't believe that, since the children are born from both parents, both parents have the responsibility of coming to an agreement as to what will be best for the children and for themselves. Looking after children requires yourself to be sane as well and it's important for both parents to get some sort of enjoyment from somewhere. If they are happy, they will give that happiness to their children. In this case, both parents may need to sacrifice or maybe just one, either way it should be a decision made with loads of discussion and understanding from each other.

Islam recognises the status of a mother as more important and vital than that of a father. I know what you mean when you say that both parents are responsible for raising the kids, but at the early stages of a child's life, the mother is the most important care provider. I could be wrong, but from what I've seen and experienced, the child becomes aware of the father and his role only later in life. Say at the age of 4 or 5. Before that, it's the mother the child needs most.

Maternity leave has been extended to 9 months now i think, which is adequate time to breast feed and wean your baby depending on when you want your child to be weaned.

I understand, but breast-feeding is just one aspect. The rights of children and the parents' duty towards them is more than just that. While Islamic education mostly focuses on the rights of the parents and the duty of kids towards them, there's also a huge domain about the rights of children. If I remember the title of the book that discusses that, I'll share.

[MossadConspiracy]

for those girls who live in America:

American law favors women in divorces much more than sharia law does. If you insist on having an official pre-nuptual agreement, just make sure it only includes your vanities and doesnt touch on issues of divorce and custody settlements. If you can find a guy dumb enough to sign whatever you want them to sign, then take them to the cleaners with the agreement. But otherwise, you dont want to put stuff in the contract thats going to net you less money when its time to shake your husband down

[Bluestar]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Islam recognises the status of a mother as more important and vital than that of a father. I know what you mean when you say that both parents are responsible for raising the kids, but at the early stages of a child's life, the mother is the most important care provider. I could be wrong, but from what I've seen and experienced, the child becomes aware of the father and his role only later in life. Say at the age of 4 or 5. Before that, it's the mother the child needs most.

I reckon you're wrong, i live with a 6 month year old monster. He recognises his dad straight away and loves to be with him. A lot of men say the mother is primary care provider, simply because they don't know what level of care is involved with taking care of a small baby. It's not very difficult, breast feeding can't be done by a guy but the mother can express milk for times when the father is looking after the baby, the dad is fully capable of changing a babys nappy and entertaining him/her. That's all thats needed when the baby is small, that level of care can be provided by both mother and father.

I understand, but breast-feeding is just one aspect. The rights of children and the parents' duty towards them is more than just that. While Islamic education mostly focuses on the rights of the parents and the duty of kids towards them, there's also a huge domain about the rights of children. If I remember the title of the book that discusses that, I'll share.

It would be silly for someone to have children if they didn't do as much as they could to bring happiness and understanding of life in general to the child. It doesn't take a book to understand that. Plus, i doubt whether Islam truly has mother/father divide on how to look after kids as the work on home weren't very much separated in the 7th century. Of course, after then, culture has dictated what should happen in a family home. Now that culture doesn't always take a primary role in a persons life and does not always shape their opinions/beliefs, i again, urge it is an issue for the couple to discuss between themselves.

There is no universal way to bring up a child. It's different in different situations and making a template as to what is "islamically" correct would not be fair for the parents or children if its not usefully applicable in their case.

The main priority is to be attentive to your child and aware of what would make them feel more comfortable in balance with what might be good for them in the future and as a progression of their own character. However, my theories are hypothetical as i have no children of my own. I am sure if i am wrong, one of the amazing mothers/fathers who visit islamica will correct me or enlighten me on my discrepancies.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Islam recognises the status of a mother as more important and vital than that of a father. I know what you mean when you say that both parents are responsible for raising the kids, but at the early stages of a child's life, the mother is the most important care provider. I could be wrong, but from what I've seen and experienced, the child becomes aware of the father and his role only later in life. Say at the age of 4 or 5. Before that, it's the mother the child needs most.

kids are aware of their dads much earlier than that

[Arabesque]

Bluestar,

I understand and accept what you're saying. I simply maintain that the mother is more important a figure at the early stages of a child's life than the father. This is probably why according to Shariah, in the event of divorce, the custody goes to the mother until the son reaches maturity, and until the girl marries.

[Bluestar]

I appreciate your views. In cases of divorce, that would be convenient if the father was not a good person. However i would never deprive my children of a father if their father was a good person but separation was based on the acceptance that we were just different people who didn't get on. The decision who to be with, i would leave with my own children and with the acceptance that they should see both parents regularly.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Bluestar

I appreciate your views. In cases of divorce, that would be convenient if the father was not a good person. However i would never deprive my children of a father if their father was a good person but separation was based on the acceptance that we were just different people who didn't get on. The decision who to be with, i would leave with my own children and with the acceptance that they should see both parents regularly.

You are right, and Shariah guarantees that. What I meant is that, Shariah also recognises the important role a mother plays in a child's life, which is why the custody in the event of divorce is a mother's right. That doesn't mean a father doesn't get to see his children or spend time with them. In fact, if agreed, he gets to keep them some of the time, too.

[onetspvanilla]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

You are right, and Shariah guarantees that. What I meant is that, Shariah also recognises the important role a mother plays in a child's life, which is why the custody in the event of divorce is a mother's right. That doesn't mean a father doesn't get to see his children or spend time with them. In fact, if agreed, he gets to keep them some of the time, too.

i dont want to turn this into a circus like in some previous thread, but is this shariah ruling man-derived or divine order? jazakAllah khair, i'm seriously just wondering

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I see what you're saying, but I don't see why a woman should be career-oriented to feel fulfilled. She chose to get married, and I'm sure she had a say regarding having a child, so why does a woman have to feel like she's been cheated into this arrangement where she'd have to give up her life? Isn't this her life, too?

What is more important? A woman's career or her children, who will have to grow up used to her absence? What's the point of being a mother if you don't want to take care of the kids yourself, and don't want to feel guilty about it, too? People should fear Allah. Kids are amanah from Allah. You want them to carry out their duties towards you; do the same to them. Otherwise they won't feel like they'd need to treat you with respect and reverence. I'm sure the nanny or whoever takes care of them would be more deserving of that.

When a woman chooses to be a mother, that's a career by itself. I don't know why some women can't see how equally fulfilling that is, just like any other full time job. You may not get official promotions and big titles on a business card you can hand out to people, but you'll have a nice family life and successful children. And of course, reward from Allah.

I have a younger sister who is about to get married. When our young cousins come over, she watches them screaming and jumping on the sofas, smashing everything right and left ... she confides to me, "I'm never going to have kids like that. I'll teach them to behave." But my sister wants to have a career, and she's most probably going to have helpers at home ... so there you go. When is she going to teach them? Weekends? I know she'll come home to kids who aren't exactly what she had planned for them to be. It's your choice.

I'm saying kids and a career aren't mutually exclusive. You can have both.
Sure, it's great to have and raise a family... but it's great to have a career too.

And in any case, it's nice for children to form relationships with other adults too, especially their father.