[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

How do you define absolute poverty then?

Maybe in Brittian there is a system for the poor to pull themselves up, but there really isn't in America. You see one or two isolated examples of people getting ahead, but they are few and far between, and often involve aquiring tremendous amounts of debt. Education is considered the best way to "get ahead" but if you are really poor, even with scholarships and everything, you could end up taking out $50,000 in student loans just for your B.S. degree. That means that unless you get an incredibly well paying job you really won't be that much better off than a very industrious construction worker with no student loans. In the USA we have this attitude of blame the poor. If someone had kids out of wedlock, they deserve to suffer, and so do their kids. It's a vicious cycle. The USA has a really feudalistic 3rd world mindset when it comes to social welfare.

Just look at the kinds of immigrants that come to the USA: mostly educated white colar type people, unless they are illegal. Many illegal immigrants are transient. They come to the USA to work in low paying jobs, live in squalor to save money, and plan to leave the USA after a few years. We don't get many refugees compared to Europe, because we don't have good system to help them get on their feet. I was watching a show about Somali refugees, their lives suck in the USA. The refugee guy was saying that sure, in the USA you have some more luxuries, but it's not worth the stress. He said that if it wasn't for the danger, he would go back to Somalia where life was easier, even though they don't have so many things. I know plenty of Mexican farmworkers who feel the same way. You can't compare the USA to Europe or Brittain.

I'll believe the Somalian when he actually goes go back to Somalia over America.
Absolute and relative poverty:

"Absolute poverty refers to those without the basic necessities to sustain human health. These people do not have their basic needs met in relation to food, warmth, water and shelter. Families are in absolute poverty when their incomes are insufficient to obtain the minimum necessity for the maintenance of physical efficiency. Relative poverty has been defined as the inability of a citizen to participate fully in economic terms in the society in which he or she lives. Both absolute and relative poverty are common and persistent in less developed third world nations, whereas usually relative poverty is the sole form of poverty in more industrialised nations such as the America. When comparing between nations consideration must be taken not to be misled, as definitions of poverty can differ significantly."

[Ugur]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

so what about you whining about your mental aberations all the time? Is that complaining? If so then stop.

Do you think I was criticizing you or something? Do you think I was really saying we live in a just world where everyone gets what he deserves including poor people or people who lost all of their family in war? If yes, then stop.

[Aryan_]

And if a couple or a woman has a child that she or they cannot afford to raise (within wedlock or out of it), who else is to blame? If it wasn't planned, it up for adoption so it can have a better life.

All the more reason to enact my policy of sterilisation for the hoi polloi.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

I'll believe the Somalian when he actually goes go back to Somalia over America.
Absolute and relative poverty:

"Absolute poverty refers to those without the basic necessities to sustain human health. These people do not have their basic needs met in relation to food, warmth, water and shelter. Families are in absolute poverty when their incomes are insufficient to obtain the minimum necessity for the maintenance of physical efficiency. Relative poverty has been defined as the inability of a citizen to participate fully in economic terms in the society in which he or she lives. Both absolute and relative poverty are common and persistent in less developed third world nations, whereas usually relative poverty is the sole form of poverty in more industrialised nations such as the America. When comparing between nations consideration must be taken not to be misled, as definitions of poverty can differ significantly."

It is not true that absolute poverty has been abolished in the USA. If you've been to any major American city, you would see that. If one cannot afford the basic necessities of life... that means that people who are on assistance in the USA (meaning they get food stamps and perhaps a housing stipend) are experiencing absolute poverty. It just so happens that there is a system set up to help them slightly. You know there are working families living in homeless shelters with their children don't you? They cannot afford to feed, clothe, and house their families, so that would mean they are experiencing absolute poverty, as your definition itself says. You know also that the American welfare system is only supposed to help you meet your absolute most basic needs right? You can't use food stamps to buy cigarettes, and there are tons and tons of food items which you can't purchase with food stamps.

Go to Seattle, and go visit the people who sit and beg under the Ballard bridge. Go to the University district and talk with the guy who begs by the Post Office, or the lady who collects cans by the north Aurora Jo-Ann Fabric store. Absolute poverty exists in the USA, and it's ranks are swelling. These days it's not only Vietnam vets, drugs addicts and Schizophrenics who are homeless and can't afford to feed their families, it's also working class people with children. It's huge problem in this country, and nobody is adressing it. Hurricaine Katrina just made it more public, and there are tons of people trying to sweep Hurricaine Katrina under the rug too.

[Timbit]

How come turkey's so inexpensive on Thanksgiving Day, Chotoo?
You mean after Thanksgiving, right? But I guess even on Thanksgiving day, because it's not like you can buy a turkey on that day and still cook it in time for dinner. Turkey takes a while to thaw and cook and all that.

But turkey can be haraam too.

We got a halal turkey last year and I still have to order one for this year. Hmmm.

And do you guys actually believe that you can't be poor in the developed world?

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Timbit

How come turkey's so inexpensive on Thanksgiving Day, Chotoo?
You mean after Thanksgiving, right? But turkey can be haraam too.

We got a halal turkey last year and I still have to order one for this year. Hmmm.

And do you guys actually believe that you can't be poor in the developed world?

Fresh Turkey's (non-frozen ones) go down in price significantly on Thanksgiving day, becuase they have to get rid of all their stock of fresh before they spoil. Also, it's Thanksgiving day, so everyone bought their turkey already, and they don't expect people to be shopping that day. If you go the day after Thanksgiving, the price is up again, and you won't find any fresh turkeys. They figure that the demand decreases after Thanksgiving too, since a lot of people eat ham and roast beef for Christmas, whereas Thanksgiving is almost exclusively turkey. In my family we ate Turkey both days because my grandpa was wild about Turkey.

Aryan is displaying the classic "blame the poor" attitudes. If he's really been around the world as he says, he should understand better, but he doesn't. I don't think Aryan has himself experienced poverty in any form. He strikes me as a very well off person from a well off family.

[Ugur]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

In my family we ate Turkey both days because my grandpa was wild about Turkey.

Why are you capitalizing the first letter of turkey and writing Turkey? Are you insinuating something about my country?

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Ugur

Why are you capitalizing the first letter of turkey and writing Turkey? Are you insinuating something about my country?

Turkey is an important and delicious meat and deserves the capitolization protocols of a propper noun .

[Timbit]

I went back and edited my post to take into account the thawing time. But you meant fresh turkeys.

So you could just buy like a whole bunch of fresh turkeys on Thanksgiving day and freeze them, no? If you were poor. Or cheap. And non-Muslim or a non-zabihah eating Muslim.

And that way, you could still have a turkey dinner on Thanksgiving.

And don't worry about Aryan. He's not a real person. He's just somebody's alter ego.
But there are real people like him and the scary thing is they're our politicans and policy-makers. Bastards.

You don't have to experience poverty to understand it. I can't say I've ever been poor, but that doesn't mean I don't realize that there is poverty. Yes, even in Canada! You just have to see it sometimes and maybe study it.

Also, you have to be a sympathetic kind of person. But some people have the whole capitalist "if you're poor, it's your own damn fault 'cause you're just lazy" mindset. No compassion. And they don't understand the structural aspects of it.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Timbit

So you could just buy like a whole bunch of fresh turkeys on Thanksgiving day and freeze them, no? If you were poor. Or cheap. And non-Muslim or a non-zabihah eating Muslim.

And that way, you could still have a turkey dinner on Thanksgiving.

That's what we did when I was young. We had a freezer for meat and things that we would buy on sale, or would be given to us by our farmer and hunting friends. You can save a lot of money buying bulk.

[Anderson]

You really can't be poor in England. We have a lower class consisting of Chavs, asian tp's and coloured people who impregnate white women for a living but you'll never see real poverty. Even these people have every oppurtunity to climb out of poverty the moment they decide they want to.

If you want to see real poverty go Egypt, India or Thailand and talk to the lawyer pushing your luggage to your room.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

You don't have to experience poverty to understand it. I can't say I've ever been poor, but that doesn't mean I don't realize that there is poverty. Yes, even in Canada! You just have to see it sometimes and maybe study it.

Also, you have to be a sympathetic kind of person. But some people have the whole capitalist "if you're poor, it's your own damn fault 'cause you're just lazy" mindset. No compassion. And they don't understand the structural aspects of it.

I think there's a big difference though between the poor in Canada and poorer countries. The people here who are struggling financially are definitely in way better shape than people struggling financially in less developed countries. And those people who are living on the street here I'll bet 99 times out of a hundred are there due to substance abuse, mental health issues or by choice.

And I think we can understand poverty as outsiders looking in, but it's not easy to know what it actually feels like. I've gotten into so many arguments with hippies because they think they have some kind of 'insider's view' on the matter, when really they haven't got a clue.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Variable

I think there's a big difference though between the poor in Canada and poorer countries. The people here who are struggling financially are definitely in way better shape than people struggling financially in less developed countries. And those people who are living on the street here I'll bet 99 times out of a hundred are there due to substance abuse, mental health issues or by choice.

And I think we can understand poverty as outsiders looking in, but it's not easy to know what it actually feels like. I've gotten into so many arguments with hippies because they think they have some kind of 'insider's view' on the matter, when really they haven't got a clue.

Right, well even if that's the case, it's not like substance abuse or mental health issues are their fault really. And how many people live on the street by choice, really?

Do you know how many children in Canada live in poverty? That's not by choice.

And of course I don't know what poverty actually feels like. But like I said, if you see enough of it and interact with some poor people, then you get a better understanding of it. I dunno which hippies you've been talking to, but anti-poverty activists and the like have a better knowledge of the issue than most of us here.

[nooni]

Originally Posted by Ibn Abu Ibrahim

A robber broke into our house once, and we robbed him.

LOOOOL!!

i remember farah made this thread before the crash. there were some great stories

[roberto]

Originally Posted by Struggle4Peace